Folded KK preflop- thoughts?

[octop]

Im on the button and the only 2 players inolved are the cutoff and MP2

Blinds 1/2 NL

Me 325
MP2 150
Cutoff 300



I get kings on the button

MP2 raises to 4
CO reraises to 14
I pop it up to 35
MP2 calls
CU rerases to 56
Now Im convinced that atleast one of these clowns has aces so I decided I will play my KK for a set or if I flop an overpair I wont go nuts with it so I call 21 more
MP2 raises to 90
CU makes it 150
I fold

Any thoughts?

[warlockjd]

Almost every time I have paid off AA preflop with KK, I highly suspected that he had AA.

The problem is, even with mutliple all ins, I suspect this way to much, and I am right less than 20 % of the time.

So, it's easy to push every time.

[nuSFwck]

In my opinion, you can't definitively say that either villian has wired aces, although judging by the preflop raises, one of them is (or both, even?) representing them. I personally like your fold here. I want to get my chips in the middle when I KNOW I have the best starting hand, not just when I THINK my hand is the best preflop. I'd rather fold here than get it all in against two opponents and likely pay off a pair of aces in a showdown.

I might be wrong on this line, but with that many preflop raises, IMO you're essentially committing your stack either preflop or on the flop. I think that if you don't firmly know you're ahead preflop (esp. in a 3-way hand), it's best to get out of the way.

[octop]

If it was just me and one other person Id have to pay it off
But with 2 people going at it I was sure I was beat

[nuSFwck]

[ QUOTE ]
If it was just me and one other person Id have to pay it off
But with 2 people going at it I was sure I was beat

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly why I suggested folding is not an outrageous possibility. Heads up, I'm generally willing to pay off AA with my KK, because of the level of uncertainty of your opponents holding. But, with 3-way action, the likeliness of one villian holding AA with that specific preflop betting greatly increases. I say good fold.

[Ghazban]

If they're really "clowns", what makes you so sure they have aces? Clowns do this stuff with far less than aces.

[octop]

LOL
Sorry for the clowns reference if it confused you
I refer to a lot of people as clowns at the poker table

[tbach24]

I've never folded kings in my life (pre-flop) before. It is very player dependent.

[Ghazban]

Its very player dependent. If you have a strong enough read that at least one person has AA, it might be a good fold but if its the short stack you're worried about having the aces, it could be correct to get all in with the other deepish stack as you could make a profit on the side pot alone (not to mention that you might suck out on the short stack's aces). Someone ought to run the numbers through pokerstove.... my gut instinct is that, if the deeper player is less likely to have AA than the short stack, you made a mistake by folding.

[poboy]

You should cash out what money you have and quit playing poker if your going to fold KK preflop.

[Smarty]

Poboy, do really want to risk 150BB that at least one of these players doesn't have AA. I know I don't.

[Ghazban]

[ QUOTE ]
Poboy, do really want to risk 150BB that at least one of these players doesn't have AA. I know I don't.

[/ QUOTE ]

If this is true without a strong read, you are either playing above your means or are just too weak-tight in general.

[PokerCat69]

Never Fold KK preflop

[solid]

[ QUOTE ]

You should cash out what money you have and quit playing poker if your going to fold KK preflop.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is terrible advice. We're not talking about a .10/.25 NL game here. There are definitely situations where KK is an easy fold preflop even in games as low as 1/2.

[TheWorstPlayer]

I don't know why no one is discussing the preflop action other than the fold. Personally, I don't like your raise. Why give a re-raiser another bite at the apple? Just call and then play some poker.

[kmvenne]

You can do far worse poker crimes then fold KK preflop. I did it once, and I was right, aces and queens lurked.

5 months later the exact same situation happened, and I didn't listen to my gut. I also proceeded to river a K high straight, which was frickin sweet. If kings are beat by aces about 4% of the time, and we are lucky enough 25% of the time to figure it out and lay 1% of our kings down, we are doing an incredible job, even if we are wrong sometimes. I'm not saying fold 1 out of every 100 kings, but the rare KK fold when given insane evidence to do so is hardly a leak in one's game.

[poboy]

Absolutely. If I'm wrong so be it, I'll lose 1 1/2 buyins. I would in fact risk much more than that. The very few times that my opponent is going to show me Aces is going to be more than made up for by the times he shows me Q's on down. You just can't be certain enough in an online game to make this a profitable laydown. The action preflop means nothing, I've seen that same action made w/ hands like JQs and baby pairs. Hell I've seen 4 way allins and nobody even had a pair. JMO

[poboy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

You should cash out what money you have and quit playing poker if your going to fold KK preflop.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is terrible advice. We're not talking about a .10/.25 NL game here. There are definitely situations where KK is an easy fold preflop even in games as low as 1/2.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you believe laying down K's is ever an easy decision than I offer you the same advice. The stakes are irrelevant, if you can't afford to lose a buyin or two than you are playing too high. If you aren't willing to risk a buyin on KK, than what will you gamble with?

[TheWorstPlayer]

This is really silly. Of course everyone on here is 'willing to gamble' with KK in theory. But that doesn't mean that they should just ignore preflop action and shove it in with the worst of it just 'because they have KK.' That is called playing your own hand and not your opponents. And that is called bad poker. A third preflop raise from a rock is AA and AA only.

[X-Calibre]

One of them has AK, it's the other i'm worried about. How can you have no reads!

If your kings are suited i'd push, otherwise, you might need to do some math.

How likely are you to be wrong about the AA? 20% of the time? The short stack cant reraise, cause the other big stack has put him all in, so, you know you can see the flop for 100, but, likely you are pushing if you want to see the river. So assume it's getting all in threeway, thats 300 to win 750, to me, that means you have to be more that 60% certain your beat here. If you want to be technical (and you should) your 56 is already gone, so you are really 250 to win 690-750 on a shove, that buys you a little bit of equity. They might even fold!

it might be interesting (though probably not possible) for someone to do some pokertracker magic and look at all hands that get 3way all in preflop and see how many times someone shows down AA.

[poboy]

[ QUOTE ]
This is really silly. Of course everyone on here is 'willing to gamble' with KK in theory. But that doesn't mean that they should just ignore preflop action and shove it in with the worst of it just 'because they have KK.'

[/ QUOTE ]

As I've already stated, I don't believe the given preflop action means anything. You are assuming that everyone plays good poker and wouldn't dare put in a reraise with less than AA, to that I say wake up.

[ QUOTE ]
That is called playing your own hand and not your opponents. And that is called bad poker. A third preflop raise from a rock is AA and AA only.

[/ QUOTE ]

I call it not seeing monsters under the bed. Bad poker is laying down the 2cd best hand in hold'em because you are afraid someone "might" have AA, this is called being weak-tight. BTW where in the original post did it say there was a rock involved?

[PokerCat69]

[ QUOTE ]

If your kings are suited i'd push, otherwise, you might need to do some math.

[/ QUOTE ]
ah [censored] it. I'm trying to think of something witty but nothing is coming to mind.
oh well

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
BTW where in the original post did it say there was a rock involved?

[/ QUOTE ]
It didn't. And I wasn't talking about this hand. My comments about this hand were limited to "don't raise the re-raiser." (Which it seems still no one wants to discuss.) My comments about the rock was simply in response to your comments that you should never lay down KK preflop.

[warlockjd]

[ QUOTE ]
A third preflop raise from a rock

[/ QUOTE ]

This is an entirely different discussion. I don't believe the poster mentioned any rocks, so my money's going in the middle.

[TheWorstPlayer]

I believe I addressed this point, but maybe you were typing your response at the same time as I was. And pushing strikes me as very bad. He is not re-re-re-raising AT here. It is almost 100% AA or QQ. Maybe JJ. So you are behind, or he is drawing to two outs. If you really don't think that it is AA, just call and then get it all in on the flop. That makes it much harder for QQ or JJ to get away.

[warlockjd]

Yeah, it was a simultaneous typing thing.

FWIW I have folded KK once preflop, it was online, it was a rock limp reraising an all in with a higher all in, and he did show AA. I just didn't want to take a shot at a best case scenario, splitting the other players $ (if rock has KK) for a 1 to 4 return on my money.

[TheWorstPlayer]

I have never folded KK preflop.

[poboy]

OK. I would like to discuss the "Don't raise the reraiser" issue. I don't completely disagree with this, in fact I think very good arguments could be made for both sides. The reason I disagree with this though is that you aren't going to be able to "play poker" after the flop, I think this hand is headed for a 3 way showdown no matter what(if op doesn't fold preflop). JMO

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
I think this hand is headed for a 3 way showdown no matter what(if op doesn't fold preflop). JMO

[/ QUOTE ]
Why do you say that? First of all, I think it is fairly likely that the opening raiser will fold once he has been re-raised and that re-raise has been cold-called. Three-handed he is certainly opening fairly light and unlikely to be able to stand up to that much pressure. I think that most likely it is going to end up HU on the flop. And I certainly think you are going to be able to play poker on the flop. If a K, Q, J, or even T hit on the flop you can at least make the re-raiser guess whether or not he should lay down his AA if he has it. If he has QQ (or JJ) you will almost certainly stack him no matter what.

[Jay36489]

I just have to say it would take a REALLY strong read to lay down KK preflop for me.

[Triumph36]

Either the cutoff is an idiot or he has aces. His re-re-re-raise to 56 suggests both A: that he has aces and B: he knows his re-re-raiser has at least queens.

MP2's play is especially bizarre. He might be a fish and have AK, he might be a fish and have AA. Whatever hand he has he brutally misplayed it.

I wouldn't be surprised to see the other two kings and aces here. Online poker is rigged, after all.

[Allinlife]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is really silly. Of course everyone on here is 'willing to gamble' with KK in theory. But that doesn't mean that they should just ignore preflop action and shove it in with the worst of it just 'because they have KK.'

[/ QUOTE ]

As I've already stated, I don't believe the given preflop action means anything. You are assuming that everyone plays good poker and wouldn't dare put in a reraise with less than AA, to that I say wake up.


[/ QUOTE ]
I think it's worse to assume theses guys are playing terrible poker than to go allin with with KK in this situation.

I make this fold because:
-none of them seem to be settling down, as CU 7 bets
-150 bb!!!! stack damn it

at 50 bb game, this should be easy allin but 150bb? that's deep enough to fold KK you can put your money as much bigger favorite than this.

unless you know that they are capable of lagging like this w/o AA, this should be easy laydown.

[poboy]

I don't think so, If I've already put $4 in I'm not folding for $10 more. Would you put in a raise with a hand that couldn't stand a small re-raise? Probably not , so I think the original raiser is at least going to see the flop. Now once an ace flops(and it will 99.99% of the time you hold KK) what do you do? I still like pushing preflop better, why let your opponents off the hook? The original raiser might fold his Ax to a push and your KK will be good against CO's QQ or worse, for his whole stack.

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think so, If I've already put $4 in I'm not folding for $10 more. Would you put in a raise with a hand that couldn't stand a small re-raise? Probably not , so I think the original raiser is at least going to see the flop. Now once an ace flops(and it will 99.99% of the time you hold KK) what do you do? I still like pushing preflop better, why let your opponents off the hook? The original raiser might fold his Ax to a push and your KK will be good against CO's QQ or worse, for his whole stack.

[/ QUOTE ]
I thought we were going to have a serious discussion. I hope no one reading this thread takes this post seriously.

[Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!]

This is a tough spot. I have a rule; if its 200NL or less (bad players) i just dont fold KK PF. The exception is when you have a huge stack. The one time i did have a massive stack in this situation i got it in vs AA and hit a K lol!!!

[PoBoy321]

[ QUOTE ]
Never Fold KK preflop

[/ QUOTE ]

Heads up, I agree. 3-way, with that kind of pre-flop action, I don't see how you can be ahead. Honestly, what hands to you put these guys on that they're raising like this? QQ? AK? AA is out there and this guy is behind. I say good fold.

[octop]

Sorry for taking so long to respond-

First the reason I reraised the raiser is to see where I am- otherwise if the flop comes 8 high now what?

It is highly unlikely an ace would have flopped as MP2 had AK and the cutoff had aces

[TheWorstPlayer]

The problem with re-raising is that it doesn't let you see where you are, all it does is tell your opponent where HE is. A good player there smooth calls with AA and now you are in the same position you would have been in if you had smooth called, except now your opponent has more information about your hand and the pot is bigger. It is not a good play.

[soah]

[ QUOTE ]
You should cash out what money you have and quit playing poker if your going to fold KK preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

You should cash out what money you have and quit playing poker if you can't think past the first level.

[octop]

I don't know that a good player nessasarily just calls with AA especially with 2 people in a pot, especially considering that he knows I ahve a damb good hand and probably will end up all in preflop, which is what he is trying to accomplish.
The other reason for my raise is to try and knock out MP2, figuring if he has a pair like sevens or eights he won't be getting odds to flop a set.

[cockandbull]

I've read a few responses and i'm not really sure what to think. I do however have a few questions.

Which site is this?

What is the buyin? If you can only rebuy for 50bb, then i think you have to factor in the chance that someone has AA plus the chance that you will miss out on future ev by being shorter than the other stacks. 100 bb and i think you can push (im not saying it correct) because you can rebuy for the same amount you have.

Looking at this, i would guess MP2 has either KK,QQ or AK and CO i'd put strongly on AA. The way the hand played out from his point of view MP bets CO likes his hand so he raises, hero also likes his hand and reraises, now MP only calls (probably thinking i'm beat), CO still likes his hand and reraises, hero (calls thinking im behind), MP thinks WTF i'm short i'll push and CO still likes his hand. Hard to put him on anything other than AA.

harry

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know that a good player nessasarily just calls with AA especially with 2 people in a pot, especially considering that he knows I ahve a damb good hand and probably will end up all in preflop, which is what he is trying to accomplish.
The other reason for my raise is to try and knock out MP2, figuring if he has a pair like sevens or eights he won't be getting odds to flop a set.

[/ QUOTE ]
He is just barely, if at all, getting odds to flop a set without re-raising. And what are the odds that you have KK, the re-raiser probably has AA-JJ, AND the other guy has a pocket pair as well? It is possible, of course, but it is definitely not worth re-raising over the possibility just in order to worsen his already pretty bad odds of hitting a set, if it is going to open yourself up to getting pushed on.

And a good player WILL smooth call your re-raise with AA. Look at what happens when he doesn't.

[Triumph36]

But what do you do on the flop with these kings? What's your plan there? If the flop comes 7 high and CO bets, do you raise? Do you call? I agree that a smooth-call pre-flop disguises your hand, but if you're incapable of not going broke on a low flop with the kings, the re-raise looks like the better play. If CO calls that and then leads a blank flop, he's marked with AA; QQ would fear AA or KK in that spot, especially out of position to the pre-flop re-re-raiser.

Most players at these levels aren't that good, and hell, I'd re-raise a re-re-raiser with AA pre-flop every time, because I think he's going to get his money in with KK or QQ. That re-re-re-raise to 56 is begging for KK to go all in over the top.

[TheWorstPlayer]

If you re-raise with QQ (not necessarily the best play, but sometimes it is) and someone cold-calls your re-raise, what do you think? Do you think "Oh cool, now I don't have to worry about KK or AA?" It doesn't really show more weakness than re-raising, all it does is prevent the other guy from acting again preflop.

My action on the flop will depend on the flop. Obviously it is going to be different if an A hits, a K hits, or a Q hits. Whatever hits, I have to gauge how this opponent would most likely play each hand that he has. If an A hits, I have to see if he plays it like he has QQ or AA. Same if a Q hits. If a Q hits and he plays it like he has AA, then I might play it like I have QQ. Depends on the opponent. Same might be true of a J. If it is nothing above a ten, then if he bets, I would probably raise (at least I get more out of QQ/JJ this way). If he checks, I would probably check behind and see what happens on the turn planning to play it the same way as the flop. If the flop and turn check through (never going to happen) then I will value bet the river (assuming all blanks on the board).

[aiel]

How many people were dealt into the hand? I'd be more inclined to fold if it were a 10 handed game and only you 3 remained. If it was shorthanded, its a really tough fold. From the betting though, you are going to need a read on them to be able to fold this but it sure looks like a good fold to me.

[octop]

it was 10 handed

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
it was 10 handed

[/ QUOTE ]
Wow. Somehow I got the idea this was 3-handed. I think someone said that at some point? Hmm... I wonder if this changes any of my points. Don't really think so, though.

[octop]

If it was 3 handed Id kill myself before I would fold this hand

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
If it was 3 handed Id kill myself before I would fold this hand

[/ QUOTE ]
Sounds good. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[mythrilfox]

Shut up. All of you. Unless either of the players are COMPLETE dumbasses (i.e. and he's trying to eliminate you to go hu with the dumbass), I have never seen a clearer fold in my life.

[mythrilfox]

I also dislike the conception that this is a "don't 3-bet with KK" situation. The fact that MP2 is in the hand really hurts, since he's getting fine odds to try for a set since 1 guy re-raised and 1 guy cold-called. Plus, you have no idea where you're at, it's hard to count the first min-raise as a raise. The fact that this is a multiway pot necessitates a 3bet IMO.

[octop]

mythrillfox- I didnt even regard the frst raise as a true raise(these idiots were doubling blinds like crazy,at times there would be 3 raises of 2 dollars each preflop) and I didnt want MP2 in the pot which is why i dont just call with kings (possibly let a blind or 2 in also?)

[mythrilfox]

No I know, I'm agreeing with you. That's what I said (or was trying to say). I think you played it perfectly. BTW, what are results?

[octop]

I thought I posted it earlier

MP2 had AK and the cutoff had aces

Im really trying to improve my game and part of that is finding a balance between making tough laydowns without seeing monsters under the bed

[Ghazban]

[ QUOTE ]
mythrillfox- I didnt even regard the frst raise as a true raise(these idiots were doubling blinds like crazy,at times there would be 3 raises of 2 dollars each preflop) and I didnt want MP2 in the pot which is why i dont just call with kings (possibly let a blind or 2 in also?)

[/ QUOTE ]

So now your opponents have been described (by you) as both "clowns" and "idiots". There is no way in hell I'm laying down KK preflop against either category of player. So this time, you were right and AA was out there. It was still a bad fold if there's a reasonable chance the larger stack had less than AA. You'd make enough in the side pot to cover your loss of the main pot the majority of the time to say nothing of how much you'd win if you spiked a king against the aces.

[octop]

Idiots and clowns get aces as well
Not to mention people who keep doubling the blind wake up and raise for real
I got the information and I wanted and avoided pissing m y stack away on a 9 high flop