Kings Early - River Advice Needed

[Travis]

PokerStars $20+2 No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

BB (t2600)
UTG (t2580)
Hero (t1680)
MP1 (t1260)
MP2 (t715)
CO (t2080)
Button (t1425)
SB (t1160)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t150</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO calls t150, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, BB calls t120.

Table is playing a bit wild so I open for more than I ordinarily would. This is the first pot that I've raised so there shouldn't be a tell there.

Flop: (t465) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t300</font>, CO calls t300, BB folds.

With two callers preflop obviously the Ace worries me but I decide to take a stab at the pot. Anyone check this flop? Checking seems so weak.

Turn: (t1065) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, CO checks.

After the flop call I decide to give him credit for the ace and check it. Flush draw also a possibility.

River: (t1065) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t570</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to t1630</font>, Hero ?

When my K hits I suspect that I have the best hand and hope that he just made two pair and didn't check his flush through on the turn. This is an easy call on the reraise right? Thoughts on any street are welcome.

[parappa]

You have to call, imo.

Edit: I also really dislike your check on the turn.

[Marcotte]

PF looks good to me, though I might only raise 120. 150 is good with JJ and QQ. On the flop I bet a little more, 375-425. The first hand most will put you on is AK, so you can sometimes get weak Aces to fold. You also do not want a flush draw you currently beat to draw out (though with two callers you don't have to worry as much).

Turn check is fine IMO. I'd do the same with AK, not wanting to risk my entire stack so early.

River I call. I think he reads you for a big ace, certainly no flush, so there's a good chance he is bluffing with the A/images/graemlins/club.gif. I think you get shown two pair or a bluff (weak A) enough that this is a profitable call (at the $20s)

[Travis]

Parappa,

Why do you dislike the turn check? The only reasonable draw is the flush draw which just hit. Other reasonable hands are an A or a smaller pocket pair. Do you think I'm usually still ahead on the turn? Or are you saying that i should represent the flush? I think its hard for him to put me on the flush given my action even if I bet.

[microbet]

I would have bet less on the flop and checked the turn. You are probably behind. How would you have played a better post-flop hand like A4o?

The way it played out though, at the river you should call.

[realbad101]

I play this the same as you, except raising to 120 pre-flop.
Call the river.

[ericlambi]

[ QUOTE ]
Edit: I also really dislike your check on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you kidding? Any type of hand you put the villain on after he called the flop bet has the hero beat. Betting here is just giving chips away.

[Travis]

MicroBob,

I would have played A4o the same way through the turn. I think it has about the same value as KK on this flop and turn. Would have folded it preflop obviously though.

I'm not sure what a smaller bet does for me on the flop though. Do you think anything less will get me any respect on the flop? My thought was that $300 still represents an Ace and gets worse hands to fold rather than bluffing at me on the flop. A small bet on a flop like this after a strong opening raise seems to screem to me "I have a PP and that ace scares me." I was trying to bet just enough to represent the Ace.

[adanthar]

Depending on how the CO and BB have played, I don't mind checking the flop. Check/folding the turn is automatic.

The river is tricky. Most of the time, this raise is a flush, but the pot is too big and he could always have a set or just a big ace. Do you have to bet the river in the first place? Probably, because Ax pays off. But I almost don't mind checking, either.

I think I probably play it like you did, shrug and move on when I'm shown Ax /images/graemlins/club.gif. He really caught a river 2 outer.

[parappa]

[ QUOTE ]
Parappa,

Why do you dislike the turn check? The only reasonable draw is the flush draw which just hit. Other reasonable hands are an A or a smaller pocket pair. Do you think I'm usually still ahead on the turn? Or are you saying that i should represent the flush? I think its hard for him to put me on the flush given my action even if I bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Adanthar's reply at the end here makes much more sense than mine.

When I edited in that I didn't like the turn check, I was dazzled by the knowledge that I was going to get a K on the river (I should never go back and put things in later). /images/graemlins/blush.gif

Anyway, if you're planning on checking the turn and folding to a bet, I think that's fine. What I was thinking about were the set of hands that would simply call on the flop then come up betting on the river when the K hits. Ax(2 clubs) is his dream hand here, and explains everything if he's got it. Of course, any 2 clubs and he's feeling fine, but I think I'd bet something with, say JT(2 clubs) on the turn. Would you give a free draw to the possible nuts after making your flush?

So I think that he's either got the Ac with a like medium card (quite possibly another club, but not necessarily), or he's got a non-club A that has just made/has had 2 pair. I don't think he's got a lower flush b/c 1) he didn't have the odds to draw to it on the flop; 2) now that he's made it on the turn, he doesn't bet. My mistake was forgetting that we don't know that he doesn't bet the turn until after we've checked.

Anyway, after seeing the river action I worked this analysis backward and concluded that the turn check was the problem (as a bet on the turn will likely get him to raise with a flush and fold Ace-weak; against the nut flush you're just screwed). But I was using information, that he pops up betting on the river, that I wasn't allowed to have on the turn and didn't notice.

But, even so, I think he's played a bit strangely with a non-nut flush here, so I think that you have to call.

Anyway, results? /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[Travis]

Thanks for all the thoughts guys. He had AQ clubs. I really wonder if I needed to lead out at that river. As Adanthar says, the pot is really big to fold on the end but its only really big because I lead out on the river.

On the other hand he probably plays AK, 99 and 33 the same way as the AQs (clubs), AJ (clubs), A10 (clubs). I've got to think that those are the only reasonable hands for him to play the way he did. Even given that I'm not sure I like my play here.

[parappa]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for all the thoughts guys. He had AQ clubs. I really wonder if I needed to lead out at that river. As Adanthar says, the pot is really big to fold on the end but its only really big because I lead out on the river.

On the other hand he probably plays AK, 99 and 33 the same way as the AQs (clubs), AJ (clubs), A10 (clubs). I've got to think that those are the only reasonable hands for him to play the way he did. Even given that I'm not sure I like my play here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that this hand is very interesting, and I think that you've identified why here. It's because of the big possibility that you're drawing dead couple with getting your miracle card. Add your analysis that the table is wild, so we should be less inclined to trust strength from villain, and this is very hard. I would've almost certainly lost all my chips here as well, one way or the other.

[microbet]

At this point in the tourney, with the stacks where they are, the number of players, and the preflop raise, I would definately be scared by the ace and not afraid to let it show.

When you get pushed off a hand at this point you will often benefit by making a successful check-raise later.