Farha in Tunica

[KDTitans]

Heard some buzz about a cheating scandal in Tunica, something about Farha and a $4,000-$8,000 Omaha side game. Anyone there who knows what the story is?

[gonores]

It's differs from story-teller to story-teller, but the most commonly heard rumor was that he shot an angle at Doyle, at showdown, Doyle opened first and said "8s up." Farha apparently said "chop it up, I have 8s up too," although his second pair was lower. He was kicked out of the game for maybe a 24 hour period or so, but he was back in the game the next day.

[slickpoppa]

[ QUOTE ]
It's differs from story-teller to story-teller, but the most commonly heard rumor was that he shot an angle at Doyle, at showdown, Doyle opened first and said "8s up." Farha apparently said "chop it up, I have 8s up too," although his second pair was lower. He was kicked out of the game for maybe a 24 hour period or so, but he was back in the game the next day.

[/ QUOTE ]
If that is what happened, then that is not an angle shoot. Announcing that you have the wrong hand at show down is neither illegal nor effective. Doyle or the dealer would certainly notice that Doyle has the better hand.

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's differs from story-teller to story-teller, but the most commonly heard rumor was that he shot an angle at Doyle, at showdown, Doyle opened first and said "8s up." Farha apparently said "chop it up, I have 8s up too," although his second pair was lower. He was kicked out of the game for maybe a 24 hour period or so, but he was back in the game the next day.

[/ QUOTE ]
If that is what happened, then that is not an angle shoot. Announcing that you have the wrong hand at show down is neither illegal nor effective. Doyle or the dealer would certainly notice that Doyle has the better hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course it's an angle shot. If he had said he had a flush and Doyle mucked, would it not be. A misread is a misread, but I think Farha likely knew what he was doing. I suppose it's possible he may have just been trying to be cute.

[fsuplayer]

[ QUOTE ]
It's differs from story-teller to story-teller, but the most commonly heard rumor was that he shot an angle at Doyle, at showdown, Doyle opened first and said "8s up." Farha apparently said "chop it up, I have 8s up too," although his second pair was lower. He was kicked out of the game for maybe a 24 hour period or so, but he was back in the game the next day.

[/ QUOTE ]



thats right except i am pretty sure it was todd brunson.

apparently they tried to roll back the tapes, but they couldnt see the cards.

the whole thing happened after the pot was chopped, when the proof was gone.

doyle got pretty heated, told him to give todd the money, he wouldnt, they kicked him out.

the next night however he was back in, with a monster stack of chips.

[slickpoppa]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's differs from story-teller to story-teller, but the most commonly heard rumor was that he shot an angle at Doyle, at showdown, Doyle opened first and said "8s up." Farha apparently said "chop it up, I have 8s up too," although his second pair was lower. He was kicked out of the game for maybe a 24 hour period or so, but he was back in the game the next day.

[/ QUOTE ]
If that is what happened, then that is not an angle shoot. Announcing that you have the wrong hand at show down is neither illegal nor effective. Doyle or the dealer would certainly notice that Doyle has the better hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course it's an angle shot. If he had said he had a flush and Doyle mucked, would it not be. A misread is a misread, but I think Farha likely knew what he was doing. I suppose it's possible he may have just been trying to be cute.

[/ QUOTE ]

The OP said that brunson showed his hand first (Assuming that's what he means by "Doyle opened first and said '8s up.'") Therefore, for Farha to chop the pot, he would have to show his hand and the dealer would have to compare the hands. Anytime a pot is chopped the dealer must see both hands and verify that the pot should be chopped. So Farha could have only gained an advantage by calling a chop if somehow both the dealer and his opponent misread the hands, which I would find very hard to believe.

[ QUOTE ]
If he had said he had a flush and Doyle mucked, would it not be.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, this did not happen, at least according to the OP's story. Farha allegedly did not announce a better hand, but announced a chop. But even if Farha did announce a better hand at showdown, the story would only make sense if Farha showed his hand first and Brunson decided to muck a hand that would have tied or better. Even then, that is more of sutpidity on Brunson's part than an angle shoot by Farha. But according to the story, Brunson showed his hand first. So again, there would have to have been an egregious error by the dealer and Brunson for Farha to somehow end up with the pot.

Maybe Farha did shoot an angle, but the way that the OP described the story just does not add up. This is why people should not post rumors like this unless they have very credible information about what happened.

[Randy_Refeld]

[ QUOTE ]
Therefore, for Farha to chop the pot, he would have to show his hand and the dealer would have to compare the hands. Anytime a pot is chopped the dealer must see both hands and verify that the pot should be chopped

[/ QUOTE ]

In BIG GAMES the players generally read their hands and tell the dealer who wins.

Randy Refeld

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
Announcing that you have the wrong hand at show down is neither illegal nor effective.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are many situations when it is.

In the Commerce lowball game, you can automatically lose the pot if you don't announce that you have a pair hand. So, if you simply table a hand like 2,2,4,6,7, you lose even if it's the best hand. You must say that you have a pair

Tommy Angelo has often posted about a California casino where if you verbally announce your hand incorrectly, you can lose the pot. So, when Tommy is heads-up with an opponent at the showdown and his opponent verbally says "trips" or some other hand which has Tommy beat, Tommy mucks his hand immediately. His opponent is then required to show the hand. If it's not what he declared it to be, he's disqualified from winning the pot (thus Tommy will pull the chips in).

[slickpoppa]

[ QUOTE ]
In BIG GAMES the players generally read their hands and tell the dealer who wins.

[/ QUOTE ]

I find it very hard to believe that there is a policy at any casino that a dealer does not verify the cards on the table before giving a player a pot at showdown. If anything, the bigger the game, the more reason there would be to have someone else verify that the best hand wins the pot. There is no reason for that policy other than that it might save about half a second.

[Rushmore]

From what I've read about this all over Creation, it was, at the very least, an angle shot.

From what I further gather from any number of different sources, one is expected not to shoot angles in these games, and the dealer is not as involved in the play of the hand as you might find at lower limits, obviously.

For Farha to mis-call his hand and to pull down the pot is inexcusable, if this is what happened.

The fact that he was back in the game the next day strikes me as odd, to say the least.

[Boris]

[ QUOTE ]
In the Commerce lowball game, you can automatically lose the pot if you don't announce that you have a pair hand. So, if you simply table a hand like 2,2,4,6,7, you lose even if it's the best hand. You must say that you have a pair

[/ QUOTE ]

Yea but lowball is a "nice" poker game. You aren't even allowed to checkraise.

[ QUOTE ]
Tommy Angelo has often posted about a California casino where if you verbally announce your hand incorrectly, you can lose the pot. So, when Tommy is heads-up with an opponent at the showdown and his opponent verbally says "trips" or some other hand which has Tommy beat, Tommy mucks his hand immediately. His opponent is then required to show the hand. If it's not what he declared it to be, he's disqualified from winning the pot (thus Tommy will pull the chips in).

[/ QUOTE ]

This is true at several casinos here. However, I have never seen the rule enforced, or even seen an instance where the rule needed to be enforced. I have seen people over declare their hand. The dealer or another player always notices right away. I've never seen a player reprimanded in any way for over declaring their hand.

[Randy_Refeld]

[ QUOTE ]
If anything, the bigger the game, the more reason there would be to have someone else verify that the best hand wins the pot. There is no reason for that policy other than that it might save about half a second.

[/ QUOTE ]

At these limits the players trust each other more than the dealer. They want the dealer to pass out the cards and STFU. I understand in Tunica it wasn't a concern becasue they played with $1 chips, but often in bigger games the players do not want the dealer to touch the pot becasue they trust the players to not cheat, but do not trust the dealer to not steal chips out of the pot. In high limit poker if the players say "split the pot" the dealer should split the pot. In a lot of big games the players have physical control of the pot and will throw their cards in when they ahve determined the winner; they do not want the dealer in THEIR busines.

Randy Refeld

[MicroBob]

Randy would know far more about this then I would of course.
But I can also tell you that at the Gold Strike they trained and brought in MANY new dealers for all the extra action.
Eventually, I suspect they might have a slightly less-veteran dealer even on the highest game. Not sure if the hand took place at the GS or the HS though.


I can also tell you that I have been in hands where the dealer mis-read the hand and had to be corrected. 2x at Horseshoe and once at Gold Strike. It happenes.
And this was in hold-em where it shouldn't be that freaking hard (whereas one can see how more errors could conceiveably be made in Omaha).

Additionally....I don't even play live that much (once a month at the most).


Factor in the nervousness of dealing such a big game with big-name players as well as fatigue from working really long-shifts non-stop all month during the tourney and it's easy to see how a dealer would let one slip by.

Sammy possibly shot the angle just because he thought the junior Brunson was tired enough or perrhaps just novice enough to not notice and also thought the dealer might be had also.


FWIW - 'we couldn't pick up the cards on our security cameras' possibly means that the camera wasn't on the table at all.

[youtalkfunny]

Randy,

I did not know that. Good stuff.

Bob,

The top post says Omaha, not hold'em.

I agree with your assessment of dealer skills in Tunica in January.

And the only way you're going to read a card on a table using the surveillance camera is to zoom in on it, which no one had reason to do at the time the card was visible. I'm sure there was a camera on the table, locked in one position, and showing a wide-angle shot of the entire table. From that shot, you can't read the cards--and if it's in black and white, you can't even read the chips.

Everybody knows the cameras CAN see every inch of the joint. But they rarely bother to try. Why should they? Don't forget, the cameras are there to protect THEIR money, not yours. If they can, they will; but don't count on them.

[Randy_Refeld]

Just one more note about big games and hand reading. Because the players read the hands and determine the winner miscalling your hand is a much great offense in this game than in a normal game. In a normal game if you overcall your ahnd and your opponant mucks he wins the pot if you can't produce at least what you called. In THIS game I would say that overcalling your hand would be cheating.

Randy Refeld

[#1donk]

back in the "old days" at the commerce you weren't even allowed to check a seven low.