Three more 40-80 Commerce hands

[steveyz]

Hand #1
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I'm in LP with red 99, loose guy EMP limps, I raise, blinds call as does the limper.

Flop is 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

SB bets out, BB raises, EMP folds, I 3-bet, SB calls, BB calls

Turn is T/images/graemlins/club.gif, checked to me I bet, both call.

river is 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, checked to me again. Is this a value bet?

SB here seemed is fairly aggressive and has a habit of cold calling pre-flop with hands that are unworthy of cold calling. BB is loose, and can be both passive and aggressive.

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Hand #2: I'm in EMP with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif and open raise. cold called by MP, LMP, and Button. Blinds also comes along and the BB mutters something about needing low cards.

Flop is K/images/graemlins/club.gif 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

BB bets, I raise, MP folds, LMP folds, Button cold calls, BB calls. (as BB calls, he says "you have a set already?")

Turn is 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif

BB bets out again, I hesistate but call, now LP raises. BB now mucks his hand. What's my move?

BB in this hand is decent, might be one of the better players at the time, but is a little too loose. Mainly he holds on to his premium hands too long when it's clear he's beat. Button is a late 20s, early 30s caucasian guy who hasn't played many hands.

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Hand #3:

I'm in EMP with JJ, suit unimportant. UTG limps (he is the BB from hand #2), I raise, MP cold calls (SB from hand #1), everyone folds to UTG who calls.

Flop is Q92 rainbow

UTG checks, I bet, MP calls, UTG calls.

Turn is T

UTG checks, I bet (should I have checked???), MP folds, UTG check-raises, I call.

River is Q

UTG hesistates for a second then bets. Do I call?

[esspo]

Hand 1. I check behind, the 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif is an atrocious card for you.

Hand 2. I think its close between folding right there and calling with the intention of check-folding the river unimproved. Given that you have the K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif in your hand, its less likely he's going for the free showdown.

Hand 3: I pay off in that spot.

[SpaceAce]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2. I think its close between folding right there and calling with the intention of check-folding the river unimproved.


[/ QUOTE ]

You call the turn but fold the river? How many outs do you give yourself here?
- Your opponent cold-called two bets pre-flop.
- Your opponent cold-called two bets on a King-high flop with two small straight cards.
- Your opponent woke up and raised two people on an offsuit low straight card turn (Danger! Danger!)
- If your opponent has a set, you're drawing dead.
- If your opponent has a straight, you're drawing dead.
- If your opponent has two pair with a King, you're drawing only to the Queens.
- If your opponent has a better King, you're drawing only to the Queens.

This pot is big but I don't think you have very many outs on average. If you call here in this swollen pot, I think you're committed to calling again on the river.

SpaceAce

[esspo]

I'd definately lean toward folding, but there are a couple of reasons I MIGHT call on the turn and check-fold the river unimproved, if I had a good reason based on a solid read of the button.

First, there are several hands that hero is behind on the turn but merit a call like AA or any two pair without a king. Since button hasn't played many hands we can rule out the two pairs with a K.

Second, button may be going for the free showdown play, which I've been seeing a lot lately.

I agree that a winning player must be able to fold top pair weak kicker when someone wakes up on the expensive street, but the pot is big enough here where it shouldn't be automatic.

[TStoneMBD]

hand 1: i dont like value betting on the river there, board is too scary.

hand 2: you should have raised the BB on the turn. his comment about having a set scared you, but thats generally just a feeler comment, play your hand the way you should. after you just call and are raised by LP, call down. there isnt alot of hands that he could have on a board like this, unless he called preflop with one of the small pocket pairs. at this level its very likely he is simply raising the turn and checking the river unimproved.

hand 3: i definitely call down regardless of whether the queen pairs or not. there is enough money in the pot to make this call correct. the turn should definitely be bet as you are ahead here a large majority of the time. just because you have outs doesnt mean you should be checking with a hand as strong as yours.

[SpaceAce]

[ QUOTE ]

I agree that a winning player must be able to fold top pair weak kicker when someone wakes up on the expensive street, but the pot is big enough here where it shouldn't be automatic.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't diasgree with that statement. I just don't believe a river fold is correct after calling the turn. I think you have very few outs on average if you're behind so to call you must think there is some chance you're ahead which to me dictates a river call in a pot this big.

SpaceAce

[andyfox]

Hand 1: Your flop 3-bet says "flush draw or big pair," but your turn follow-up bet says "probably big pair." That would tend to make the others think check-raise the river with a big hand and fold a marginal hand that might have called a non-heart river card. I lean towards checking behind.

Hand 2: Button might be putting you on a flush draw, and he might just have one himself, but it sure looks more like a set of 4s or 3s or A-5s, despite big blind's small card comment.

Hand 3: Looks like K-J or 9-9 or possibly T-9 or even J-T. I tend to call for one bet with a hand of value in the Commerce 40-80 against an unknown or unrocky opponent.

[esspo]

I get the don't call the turn and fold the river thingy when you don't have enough outs to continue on the turn when you are behind. I just think that there are times like this when the pot is decent and you may have enough outs to call the turn, but you may not plus your opponent may be going for the free showdown + fold equity play. In those spots sometimes its all right to call the turn, but if you don't improve and villain fires again on the river you can safely fold.

All that being said, like I mentioned before I probably fold the turn given the description of the button.