Some more creative checking [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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TheWorstPlayer

01-31-2005, 10:00 AM

No read on villain.

Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $.25 BB (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

UTG ($8.90)
UTG+1 ($12.80)
UTG+2 ($19.05)
MP1 ($34.30)
MP2 ($24.90)
MP3 ($15.60)
CO ($20.40)
Button ($25)
Hero ($36.30)
BB ($72.05)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif.
2 folds, UTG+2 calls $0.25, MP1 checks, MP2 raises to $1.45, 3 folds, Hero calls $1.35, 1 fold, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls $1.20.

Flop: ($4.85) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, MP1 checks, MP2 bets $4.95, Hero calls $4.95, MP1 folds.

Turn: ($14.75) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero checks

Comments on all streets appreciated.

Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!

01-31-2005, 10:04 AM

This is fine. No more action?

soah

01-31-2005, 10:13 AM

You're gonna get sick when he checks behind and a ten comes on the river. Slowplaying has very little merit here because there is no second best hand that he can improve to, and you're out of position. I tend to just go nuts on the flop, since he's either got an ace or he doesn't. Your line only works if you think he'll bet again on the turn with some hand which would have folded to aggression on the flop.

lil_o

01-31-2005, 10:18 AM

The flop check is excellent.

If you are going to check the turn with the board having a broadway draw I think you want to win the pot right there with a giant checkraise. Honestly I don't like the turn check in case an A or 10 falls. I probably would have led out on the turn for a pot size bet.

TheWorstPlayer

01-31-2005, 10:29 AM

The fact that he had raised and he had bet the pot on the flop said to me that he would bet again on the turn when checked to and I didn't want him folding to my stop and go. But I knew that people here would probably blast me for not protecting my hand from the draws on the turn, so that is why I am posting. So, if people think I should have led out on the turn, can they just be as specific as possible as to how much to bet and why that is better than, say, check/raising the flop or leading on the flop or whatever other alternative lines there are. (Just like you did, pretty much, thanks.)

BobboFitos

01-31-2005, 10:37 AM

TWP,

I'm with Soah on this (as usual... He gets ot everything first /images/graemlins/mad.gif )

The general rule of thumb when an ace flops and there's a PFR raiser... You're either going to get a person who likes his hand alot or really doesn't like it at all.

I would make an effort to build the pot on the flop.

Edit: By making an effort, I'm not really sure if I prefer you leading at the pot or check raising. Semi player dependant and if Villain will pot it or make a weak little pokerstars pussy bet - ie it's much easier to check raise a bigger bet, because opponent is slightly more committed...

soah

01-31-2005, 11:04 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The fact that he had raised and he had bet the pot on the flop said to me that he would bet again on the turn when checked to

[/ QUOTE ]

Doesn't the fact that he bet the flop after raising preflop tell you absolutely nothing about whether or not he actually liked the flop? As I said in my first post, the only way I like your line is if you're very sure he'll fire again on the turn with hands like KK. But if he's not continuing with the hand unless he improves then it really sucks to give him two free cards, especially when a third broadway hits on the turn. Given how short his stack is there's basically no way he's folding top pair if he has it. So I checkraise the flop (gets more from KK/JJ than by leading out and letting them fold). Even raising the minimum leaves him completely committed.

TheWorstPlayer

01-31-2005, 11:06 AM

It's basically a little SSNL theory that I have that a pot bet means aggression (which will usually be continued) and an underpot bet means thinking. I think this is particularly true on UB where a lot of people just smash the "Bet Pot" button without thinking whereas getting a specific amount means typing in the bet number and then clicking a smaller button. Yes, this theory is on somewhat shaky foundation.

TheWorstPlayer

01-31-2005, 06:29 PM

Thanks for the great responses. I feel like I may have been a bit results oriented on this one so I wanted to check my line with you guys. Anyways, onto the results.

Villain pushed, I called, and there was no help for his K3o. If I had known he was a maniac, I'm sure that would have made my line a bit more justified. And yes, Soah, I would have cried if I had seen a ten on the river!

X-Calibre

01-31-2005, 06:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The fact that he had raised and he had bet the pot on the flop said to me that he would bet again on the turn when checked to

[/ QUOTE ]

Doesn't the fact that he bet the flop after raising preflop tell you absolutely nothing about whether or not he actually liked the flop? As I said in my first post, the only way I like your line is if you're very sure he'll fire again on the turn with hands like KK. But if he's not continuing with the hand unless he improves then it really sucks to give him two free cards, especially when a third broadway hits on the turn. Given how short his stack is there's basically no way he's folding top pair if he has it. So I checkraise the flop (gets more from KK/JJ than by leading out and letting them fold). Even raising the minimum leaves him completely committed.

[/ QUOTE ]

A few disagreements here, for one the bettor is only in for $7 of his 25. A flop check raise even of the min doesnt leave him totally committed (unless i misread something)

Also, at the time of the flop call by the hero there is still one player to act. The hand is still 3 handed, so smooth calling has the added benefit of not scaring off a potentional customer.

tbach24

01-31-2005, 07:04 PM

Before I check the results here's what I'd do:

I would check/call this flop. It's more or less a drawless board because I don't think that the PFR is going to be having KJ/JT/KT.
On the turn, I would lead for 10.

jimdmcevoy

01-31-2005, 07:09 PM

I guess I don't hate the way you played it, but I always like to lead the flop when I flop a set. It is acutally quite deceptive.

Once you check/call the flop though, I don't mind the turn check. It's hard to put him on a flush draw since the flop was a rainbow, therefore there are only 8 action-killing cards in the deck to hit on the river. Seeing as he will probably bet the turn, this is not too much to risk in my opinion.

But again, leading the flop with a set I like since no one ever lays down top pair to a single bet.

TheWorstPlayer

01-31-2005, 07:14 PM

Against good players I agree. At 6 max I agree. At full ring I often don't because I find people are less aggressive and unless there is an obvious draw on the board they often don't raise. And they usually bet at the flop even if they miss unless there are several callers so I prefer to check it to them unless there is an obvious draw. If there is a draw, then I lead out both to protect and to entice them to raise to protect.

Benal

01-31-2005, 07:15 PM

Checking a set on the flop is being creative? Ok....

TheWorstPlayer

01-31-2005, 07:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Checking a set on the flop is being creative? Ok....

[/ QUOTE ]
Checking on the turn is being creative.

Benal

01-31-2005, 07:21 PM

Give me a few hours to get home from work, and I'll show you some creative checks...

TheWorstPlayer

01-31-2005, 07:25 PM

Umm....ok? (I am very confused at this point.)

Maybe you could just comment on the hand?

Benal

01-31-2005, 07:31 PM

I just don't think it's very creative is all...

TheWorstPlayer

01-31-2005, 07:47 PM

OK, so you think that the standard play here is to check, despite the fact that nobody who has posted in response to this hand has liked the turn check. Fine. Can you please explain your rationale for why you do like it? Assume, that is, that what you mean by it not being creative is that it is your standard play?

Benal

01-31-2005, 08:39 PM

I actually don't like your line much, for reasons most have already said. Anyways, here are two hands that I thought were a little more "creative".

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $4 BB (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

SB ($309.1)
Hero ($257.4)
UTG ($705.88)
MP ($215.7)
CO ($194)
Button ($408.2)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls $4, 4 folds, Hero raises to $10, UTG calls $6.

Flop: ($22) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $15, UTG calls $15.

Turn: ($52) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $30, UTG calls $30.

River: ($112) A/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $75, Hero calls $75.

Final Pot: $262

Results in white below: 
Hero has Kh Ah (two pair, aces and nines).
UTG has 4s 6s (two pair, nines and sixes).
Outcome: Hero wins $262. 

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

CO ($62.75)
Button ($326.38)
Hero ($168.55)
BB ($100)
UTG ($136.95)
MP ($128.85)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
3 folds, Button calls $2, Hero raises to $6, 1 fold, Button calls $4.

Flop: ($14) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks.

Turn: ($14) K/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $6, Button calls $6.

River: ($26) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $35, Hero calls $35.

Final Pot: $96

Results in white below: 
Hero has Ks Ac (two pair, aces and kings).
Button has Th 2h (one pair, tens).
Outcome: Hero wins $96.

TheWorstPlayer

01-31-2005, 08:44 PM

So, just to clarify, you think that checking a turn with several draws is not creative, but making the incredibly standard river check to snap off bluffs is creative? Maybe we are using different definitions of creative.

Benal

01-31-2005, 08:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe we are using different definitions of creative.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL - I guess so then.

TheWorstPlayer

01-31-2005, 08:52 PM

Anyways, your hands were nicely played (not sure about the first turn bet, but whatever) and excellent table selection. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif