Minraising AA...

[Mr_J]

I've minraised quite a few AA over the last week, is this a bad move? I'm playing at the $33 level, so most won't notice the difference ( a minraise vs 3xBB). Seems like minraising AA opens the door for some nasty beats, so it might've been better to just bet normally in the first place.

An example from today:

UTG+1 (t745)
MP1 (t470)
MP2 (t800)
CO (t2335)
Button (t750)
Hero (t1505)
BB (t320)
UTG (t1075)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, CO calls t50, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t100</font>, BB calls t50, CO calls t50.

Flop: (t300) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero bets 450, BB folds, CO moves all-in, Hero Calls.


Turn: (t300) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>

River: (t300) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>

Final Pot: t300

He had 96s and won. I wouldn't minraise the first 2 levels, but I'm thinking that minraising isn't a good idea until people are pushing their stacks (at least level 4 &amp; higher). I have only minraised when there's been at most 1 limper and I'm in LP trying to get some more action. Should I just get rid of the minraise anyway? Remember I play $33s, so I don't think I need to worry about it becoming a tell.

Now calling on the flop. I felt I was ahead here, but after betting 1/3rd of my stack on the flop, surely he had to think I had something? He may have thought I was trying to steal with an overbet, but it wasn't a large pot and I'm investing quite a large chunk of my stack (so I probally have something). How would you interpret his play? Does he have TT+, AK etc enough (as opposed to a set) for this to be correct to call?

[elonkra]

Don't ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever do it, for a litany of reasons.

Just my humble opinion.

[Mr_J]

BTW, his 96s was not hearts,

by minraising AA alot lately, I mean maybe 3-4 times. It's not a bad habit I have, just something I've tried out and I would like opinions on.

I'm not saying it's a great move or anything, but there have to be situations where it's good. E.g, minraising when folded to (shorthanded) from SB with loose/aggressive player in BB who will probally call or come in over the top.

[Irieguy]

When you have pocket aces, the goal is to get as much money into the pot preflop as you can.

Sometimes, the only way to do that is with a min. raise. Sometimes it's with a limp. But the overwhelming majority of the time you are better off over-raising the size of the pot. People love to call. They really, really, do.

In the example you give, you made a big mistake. You are taking reverse implied-odds against the BB.

Also, the earlier in a SNG, the more you should raise relative to the blinds with Aces.

Here's a chat conversation I once had (before I started multi-tabling) that demonstrates my point:

BB is 30 and I raise to 150 chips from LP with pocket aces. Everybody folds to the BB.

BB: "nice raise, you don't have sh***"
BB: "People that raise that much never have anything."
Irieguy: "I have aces."
BB: "BS"
Irieguy: "I have aces, but it doesn't matter. Even if you were sure that I had aces you would still call because you can't help it."

BB pushed all-in for 800 and I called. He had 9-9. He won. Once you understand how true my last chat statement is, you will understand how to play aces.

Irieguy

[SuitedSixes]

[ QUOTE ]
BB: "nice raise, you don't have sh***"
BB: "People that raise that much never have anything."
Irieguy: "I have aces."
BB: "BS"
Irieguy: "I have aces, but it doesn't matter. Even if you were sure that I had aces you would still call because you can't help it."

[/ QUOTE ]

That is awesome.

[eastbay]

[ QUOTE ]

Irieguy: "I have aces, but it doesn't matter. Even if you were sure that I had aces you would still call because you can't help it."


[/ QUOTE ]

lmao...

As to the original question, my line is exactly Irieguy's: whatever play maximizes money in the pot preflop is the play you want. This can mean min-raising, especially if someone think it's their duty to punish every min-raise with an all-in. However, at most tables, it is not the right move because if someone's going to call, they're going to call more than the minraise, and they may even head for the hills fearing the monster, because lots of people like to minraise aces and kings.

So: it depends.

eastbay

[Mr_J]

Yep I think I definately should've raised more here. Already had a limper, so he's probally a good chance at calling my raise (he'll probally call a 3-4x raise nearly as often as a minraise). I guess sometimes I'm scared that my AA will be wasted, and want to milk it for all it's worth each time. The blind size definately didn't help (win 125 chips yeah).

What about postflop? Has he not got a set enough for this to be correct to call?

"it is not the right move because if someone's going to call, they're going to call more than the minraise"

Yep. That's what I figured.

I was sort of surprised when I saw his cards. Maybe it hasn't sunk in how stupid people can be when it comes to poker (I know how stupid people are when it comes to gambling, but poker takes the cake).

[Cleveland Guy]

I only min-raise Aces when I am in an EP (UTG or UTG +1), and I think it might get re-raised before it goes around, or when it's folded to me in a steal position (CO or Button), and the SB or BB might think I am stealing and raise to re-steal.

min-raising from the SB is not a good idea. The BB has good odds to call here, as does the original limper.

Yes you got sucked out on, but I still don't like the play.

[rachelwxm]

[ QUOTE ]

BB: "nice raise, you don't have sh***"
BB: "People that raise that much never have anything."
Irieguy: "I have aces."
BB: "BS"
Irieguy: "I have aces, but it doesn't matter. Even if you were sure that I had aces you would still call because you can't help it."

BB pushed all-in for 800 and I called. He had 9-9. He won.
Irieguy

[/ QUOTE ]

game theory used to its extreme, good one. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[ericlambi]

He didn't have a set when you got all your money in. He sucked out on you. You should be ecstatic that he was willing to put all his money in with top-pair, no kicker.

I agree with others that you need to do whatever it takes to get the maximum amount of money into the pot pre-flop. There are occasions where this involves a min-raise. It's relatively rare though. I did it once yesterday when I had AA in the BB and the only caller was the SB. He probably would have called a 3BB raise though, so even then I'm not sure it's the best idea.

[esbesb]

I think mini-raising in a situation like this is a bad move.

What does your raise accomlish? It gets an extra 100 into the pot with two players still in. You know the CO is going to call, and you let the SB in cheap. So, there are three players and 300 in the pot.

Raise to 150. SB will probably fold, unless he has a hand (which is fine). CO will probably call, but may fold if SB calls. No matter how you slice it you are likely to get just as much, or almost as much money in the pot with one less player. OR, you take down the pot then and there and be happy you didn't get beat by letting a guy in cheap.

Look, aces are great, but you can lose a lot of chips by getting greedy. How many times have you seen a guy lose all his chips because he mini-raises, lets 3-4 players see the flop, and then goes all-in when the flop comes JJ3 or 789? I've seen it happen a lot, and it's usually preventable.

[esbesb]

BTW, IF you are going to limp or miniraise, you need to decide right then and there that you are willing to let your aces go post-flop if need be. Situations like this come up when you limp or mini-raise in first position with the hope of getting re-raised. It is not necessarily a bad move, but if your plan doesn't work and six people see the flop, then you HAVE to be willing to let your aces go when there is heavy betting on a flop of JJ4 or an infinite variety of other possible flops. If you don't have the discipline to lay your aces down post-flop, you cannot let multiple players see the flop or you may be in a world of hurt.

[betgo]

I understand why you miniraised here. You are playing against the BB and the CO who open limped. The open limp usually usually is a fishy play with a marginal hand, maybe a drawing hand like a suited gapper, which is exacly the case here. If the CO is trapping, you will find that out whatever raise you make, and you are in great shape.

No one has shown any strength here, so I wouldn't raise to say 5xBB, as you will probably win the pot. The miniraise makes it too easy for people to come in cheaply and may tip them off you have a big pair. With AA, you really are not looking to trap postflop when your overpair may not be good.

I would raise a little more, probably to 3xBB.

Actually to miniraise worked beautifully here. The CO's play was pretty questionable, going allin for 30xBB with that top pair of 9s. I know some top pros play hands like that, but they raise with them to steal the blinds rather than open limping, and they make good reads.

[cleverett]

I'm right there with you on the min raise. One thing I started doing in those 1 table tourneys is just calling with AA in early position when there is another player who keeps raised in late position. I make a big raise hopefully to bust him or steal his raise and the other blinds. Read that in Super Sytem

[Mr_J]

Thanks for the replies for the minraise guys.

How about postflop, not sure anyone has commented on that. What would your reads here be, and does he not have a set often enough for me to be able to call this?

[gh9801]

Openminraising with AA should be fine, but with even one limper minraising with AA is too dangerous