VeryShortPost

[DrGutshot]

4 handed 10/20 PP, I am UTG/CO w/A4o and raise, TAG (like 22/14 6max stats) 3bets, blinds fold, I fold.

thoughts?

-DrG

[Evan]

Getting 6.5-1 I think it sucks. You're going to flop an ace more often than that and you may well have the best hand. If nothing else I think it gives you an image you don't want.

[DrGutshot]

what about the times you dont have the best hand when an ace flops.

also, what about taking this hand into consideration for future hands to use it against him, assuming he may try to push you around next time you raise utg.

-DrG

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]

what about the times you dont have the best hand when an ace flops.


[/ QUOTE ]
You will lose money. But I think that getting 6+:1 in a 4 handed game ace high is pretty good.

[ QUOTE ]

also, what about taking this hand into consideration for future hands to use it against him, assuming he may try to push you around next time you raise utg.

[/ QUOTE ]
Here's the thing. You are trying to make a case for getting excess action later that will make up for what you may be giving up on this hand. Are youplaying a diffeent 10/20 6 max game than me? Getting enough action is not something that I worry about. My guess is that since the game is very short, if he does decide to act on teh image created by folding here you will end up folding to many ace hisg-ish hands and you'll cost your self some money.


Honestly, I just can't see an arguemnt for this play.

[Alobar]

I dont like it.

should I be raising A5o and lower UTG everytime 4 handed? I dont always.

[DrGutshot]

[ QUOTE ]

should I be raising A5o and lower UTG everytime 4 handed? I dont always.

[/ QUOTE ]

with a tight button, I think so.

-DrG

[Jeff W]

When you consider this hand in a vacuum, the fold is bad.
When you consider this hand in the context of the metagame, the fold is awful.

[rory]

Likely dominated or only have 3 outs, out of position. Good fold.

[Evan]

When you intend to fold to a 3 bet I think not.

[Evan]

Is this a joke? How likely do you think he is to be dominated? Does that make it a good fold?

[rory]

Yes, I already said it was a good fold.

[DrGutshot]

lets assume he will always 3bet 66+, A8+, KJ+, and sometimes 3bet 22-55, QTo-KT but not usually.

Even if my ace high is good, I can't possibly play it profitably postflop if I miss.

Are all of you "bad fold"ers check/folding a generic missed flop?

check/calling and praying for him to check behind the turn? Then what, check/call a river even though your ace will rarely be good? praying he checks behind both the turn and river?

Assuming he has 2-3 PFagg, you will never know how you stand. Good luck playing this postflop, guys.


-DrG

[Jeff W]

Lets assume you have 3 outs.

Ac 4d 494413 28.87 1210499 70.69 7392 0.43 0.291
Kd Kh 1210499 70.69 494413 28.87 7392 0.43 0.709

Ac 4d 398358 23.26 1236045 72.19 77901 4.55 0.255
As Ks 1236045 72.19 398358 23.26 77901 4.55 0.745

You only have to win 13.3% of the time(lose 6.5/7.5 and win 1/7.5) for the call to be profitable. He will have AA sometimes and others you will lose more and win less because of your positional disadvantage, but you still have an overlay.

[rory]

He is not all in.

[DrGutshot]

pokerstove makes me laugh like no other.

postflop, postflop, postflop.

-DrG

[Jeff W]

He isn't?!?

[Evan]

Given your hand ranges (leaving out the "sometimes" ones) there are 206 possible hands he could have. You have 3 ace outs agaisnt 96 of them (pp's), are dominated by 72 of them and are ahead of 32 of them. You are of course drawing nearly dead the 6 times he has AA.

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre> equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 34.9250 % [ 00.32 00.03 ] { Ac4d }
Hand 2: 65.0750 % [ 00.62 00.03 ] { AA-66, AKs-A8s, KQs-KJs, AKo-A8o, KQo-KJo } </pre><hr />

There's the pokerstove. Now I understand that it will not be the easiest hand to play postflop, but do you seriosuly think that its ahrd enough that you can misplay your way out of 44% of your equity?

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]

postflop, postflop, postflop.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree. That's why my first thought when I saw that you folded paritally because of the difficulty of playing the hand postflop was that you really shouldn't be playing shorthanded.

[tolbiny]

"also, what about taking this hand into consideration for future hands to use it against him, assuming he may try to push you around next time you raise utg."

Younow have a sample size of 1 hand where you raised preflop, got three bet an folded. If it happens again when you have A7, or KT how will you react? Basically you have to get lucky enough that the next time he three bets you preflop you
1. Have a hand that wants the extra action.
and
2. Your opponent has a hand that doesn't match up well with yours.
The number of marginal preflop raising hands in a 4 handed game is really quite high for you to expect your next confrontation to be favorable for you.
I also think that you are giving up a small amount of equity on this specific hand by folding. yes the postflop play will be tough, but 6-1 tough?

[Jeff W]

If you were getting 10:1, would you call pre flop?

If so, then the question is what odds do you need to make this call profitable. I ran the numbers to find your equity when you're drawing to 3 outs. If your showdown equity is 25% and your pot odds are 6.5:1, then you have to be giving up ~1/2 of your showdown equity postflop to make the call unprofitable. I think this is unlikely.

I see no reason for your condescending tone. I am well aware of the limitations of pokerstove analysis.

[Gazza]

If you are trying to mess with his mind then maybe you could make a case for it.
Otherwise it is a terrible fold.
I would rather call the re-raise and fold blind on the flop. Either just muck the hand, which I often do even 4 handed, or call the re-raise.

A TAG with the button in a 4 handed game can reraise on a wide variety of hands. For a start he is probably no longer a 22/14 man but somewhat looser. Just look at what you raised. A TAG will know that your standards have gone down and make the appropriate adjustments.

You may be ahead against two face cards. You may be drawing to an ace if he has a pair. And even if he has a better ace then there are many split pots and just think of the implied odds you are getting for reverse domination.

The main problem is that it will be hard to play not knowing where you stand and out of position but folding with such odds when all you have to do is pay one small bet to see three cards is not good poker

Gazza

[rory]

Why is it so unreasonable to think he could easily lose a BB postflop out of position with this hand? He is going to lose the most when he is behind and win the least when he is ahead.

[DrGutshot]

I am curious as to how all of you play this postflop when it comes no paint to make this profitable.

Also when you hit. I used to call this 100% of the time, and if i'd hit, against a TAG I would usually either c/r bet bet, or check call check call bet depending on the board.

I think more importantly is the play when the board misses you.

so enlighten me,
-DrG

[Evan]

Quick mental math says that you could likely play this profitably by check-folding every time the board misses you. Its pretty easy to figure out with Bayes.

Like I said though, using the dificulty of playing this hand postflop as rationale for folding when you're getting 6.5-1 seems like evidence that you may not be playing in a game that is optimal for you.

[Gazza]

I didn't read all the way down before I replied. I now see many of my points have already beed addressed.

I'll just add that Harrington in his recent No limit book discusses such situations when someone opens light and gets re-raised (more seriously re-raised as well in NL). The gist of what he says is that it is usally a much bigger mistake to fold to the re-raise than to open light.

Just a few quick questions for Rory.
Are you really a 6 max player?
With respect, all you ever seem to do is fold. Can you win well with this style? Do you still get any action? Do you use peoples aggression against them? Or do you just find games with idiots? How does it work?

Gazza

[rory]

[ QUOTE ]
All you ever seem to do is fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you for the compliment.

[Gazza]

[ QUOTE ]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

All you ever seem to do is fold.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Thank you for the compliment.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, I don't mean to sound offensive but your advice is nearly always to fold. I am genuinely interested to hear arguments for your stlye and why you are not playing a full ring game

Gazza

[Evan]

If you cannot play this hand well enough to average better than -1 BB postflop than you have some serious trouble. You could do better than that by simply folding every time you miss the flop and playing semi-competantly when you don't.

[rory]

I like the six max games because I do not like being in early position very much.

[stripsqueez]

this thread is fun

i very occasionally cap pre-flop (i would cap more if the 3 bet came from the SB) but i cant see the fold button

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[Evan]

Even with the button as the 3 better I think capping&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;folding.

[Gazza]

[ QUOTE ]
I like the six max games because I do not like being in early position very much.



[/ QUOTE ]

Nor do I.

But what about the increased frequency of the blinds. And what about all the BS going on. Shouldn't you open up your game and become more resilient in order to deal with it. I have no doubt a good player can still win playing in a tight passive style but it is far from optimal in these games

[Schneids]

I really have nothing of substance to add to this thread.

However, I'm going to point out that I've witnessed on more than one occasion Vehn open raising and folding to a 3-bet when we've played together live.

Additionally, for those who missed it, during the summer in one post I called Vehn a "limit hold em god" or something like that.

Just some food for thought.

[DrGutshot]

[ QUOTE ]
I really have nothing of substance to add to this thread.


[/ QUOTE ]

at least tell us your action+postflop plan? (unless it's confidential /images/graemlins/tongue.gif)

[ QUOTE ]

Additionally, for those who missed it, during the summer in one post I called Vehn a "limit hold em god" or something like that.

Just some food for thought.

[/ QUOTE ]

I must have missed something when Vehn dissapeared, where did he go/what happened to him?

thanks,
-DrG

[rory]

I'm not passive. My postflop AF is 2.5.

I don't understand why we should play looser because it is six max. I just play the same hands I do in the same positions in a full ring game. It just works out as being a higher VIP because I am not in early position as often.

[Evan]

This is not an issue of playing looser. Whether or not it was correct to raise A4o it is bad to fold to a 3 bet once you have.

[rory]

I was responding to that guy who was saying all I ever do is fold and I need to loosen up. I already said what I thought about the beautiful, wonderful highly skilled fold of A4o.

[sublime]

However, I'm going to point out that I've witnessed on more than one occasion Vehn open raising and folding to a 3-bet when we've played together live.

i believe tommy angelo has made this play a couple of times (well posted about it anyways)

dont both those guys play for a living? interesting /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[stripsqueez]

[ QUOTE ]
However, I'm going to point out that I've witnessed on more than one occasion Vehn open raising and folding to a 3-bet when we've played together live

[/ QUOTE ]

thats the best argument for fold i have heard - perhaps playing live a limit holdem deity such as vehn is able to accurately read when someone has AA ?

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[sublime]

thats the best argument for fold i have heard - perhaps playing live a limit holdem deity such as vehn is able to accurately read when someone has AA ?

i would say it has more to do with experiance and maturity, like realizing you got caught with your hand in the cookie jar and being smart enough to take it out before your mom slams the lid down.

[tolbiny]

This situation though is like spitting out the cookie while your mom spanks you. Your already getting the whoppin'- might as well enjoy the cookie.

[Gazza]

[ QUOTE ]
i believe tommy angelo has made this play a couple of times (well posted about it anyways)


[/ QUOTE ]


And I think he gets a lot of stick for this sort of stuff in the mid/high stakes forum.

Anyway, I can understand that such plays may well have a place in high stakes B/M games against top players, but they are a completely different world to the online low to medium stakes 6 max games that most of us are playing in

Of course it's horrible to be 3 bet by the BTN here but it would be correct to call with 72o let alone A4o

Gazza

[sublime]

And I think he gets a lot of stick for this sort of stuff in the mid/high stakes forum.

mostly by relative newbies that dont have 15 years experiance as a poker pro.

Anyway, I can understand that such plays may well have a place in high stakes B/M games against top players, but they are a completely different world to the online low to medium stakes 6 max games that most of us are playing in

you are forgetting that hero gave a us a read. the read being that his opponent is good (tight, whatever) what good is it to have pokertracker if we dont use the info we have to our advantage?

Of course it's horrible to be 3 bet by the BTN here but it would be correct to call with 72o let alone A4o

ill forget you even typed that.

look, i am not saying i would fold, but i dont see it being worng either.

[DrGutshot]

[ QUOTE ]
This situation though is like spitting out the cookie while your mom spanks you. Your already getting the whoppin'- might as well enjoy the cookie.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol...but I have no idea how this relates to the hand...

-DrG

[Gazza]

[ QUOTE ]
you are forgetting that hero gave a us a read. the read being that his opponent is good (tight, whatever) what good is it to have pokertracker if we dont use the info we have to our advantage?


[/ QUOTE ]

Better get rid of your pokertracker than use it like that. I addressed his read earlier. I think the opponent was a 22/14 but presumably, like Dr. Gutshot, he has loosened up considerably now it is down to 4 players.

You become his poodle playing like that. The guy already has position on you in a game where most of the time we miss our hands. It is asking for trouble. If you must fold then change table or change style straight away afterwards.

Anyway,I would fold pre flop more often than I would raise here

Gazza

[DrGutshot]

True he would loosen up to some extent. However, I think not raising this with a reasonably tight button is a mistake. As long as the blinds are bad or predictable, this is an easy raise for me.

Being able to play postflop with an easy opponent in position is a dream situation.

-DrG

[Gazza]

Well I think A4o is very marginal and completely game, image dependant etc.
But anyway, Dr Gutshot,will you fold next time you get 3 bet by a TAG in such a situation?

[sublime]

Better get rid of your pokertracker than use it like that.

huh?

[DrGutshot]

[ QUOTE ]
Well I think A4o is very marginal and completely game, image dependant etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed
[ QUOTE ]

But anyway, Dr Gutshot,will you fold next time you get 3 bet by a TAG in such a situation?

[/ QUOTE ]

Good question.
Probably.

I have clearly received a ton of negative feedback, some of which I don't like the reasoning of. Some of you have valid points, however.
Hopefully some more points of view will give their input, or the same points of view will continue to elaborate over the next couple days before this thread dies. Maybe then I'll change my mind.

-DrG

[stripsqueez]

i got a reason - if the other guy has a serious hand it wont be too hard to play post flop and you get great implied odds when you hit the flop hard

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[DrGutshot]

Strip I am interested in how you think this is so easy to play postflop. The difficulty to play postflop was my main deterrent from calling preflop.

Without making this overly complicated - I'm interested in hearing your responses for each of these various scenarios.
(You call the 3bet)
Flop comes no ace, no four, no paint, your action? (I presume c/f)
If you call one on the flop, and he checks behind blank turn, river is another blank, your action?
Same, but river is a K-J?

Flop comes 4xx, where xx is between 5-T (no paint)
C/R or bet?
-If you bet, are you bet-3betting if he raises?
--If he caps, do you then C/F an unhelpful turn?

IF C/R, what do you do if he just calls, the turn is a blank and he raises your bet there.
OR
IF C/R, what do you do if he just calls, the turn is a K-J, and he raises (I presume fold)
IF C/R, what do you do if he just calls, calls a blank turn, river is a blank? your action?
IF C/R, what do you do if he just calls, calls a blank turn, river is a K-J? your action?
IF C/R, what do you do if he 3bets? call down the whole way? C/F the turn?

If Flop is Axx xx being pretty much any 2 cards.
My action here would be check call check call bet.
-What do you do if he raises your river bet here?

If he checks the flop, I would get extremely suspicious of him, but still probably call down the turn/river.

Hope this all made sense

Thanks,
-DrG

[helpmeout]

I think the question is more why raise this trash in the first place.

22/14 isnt overly tight for 6max, he is no rock. If he was 17/5 or such and the blinds were both tight as well I'd raise it.

A4o is crap, its a button steal hand, if I noticed you raising this type of junk I'd 3bet with hands like QTo A7o KJo etc, more if you weakly folded them when you missed the flop. Mr not so tight would do the same.

I dont know what to do with this hand against a 3bet and being out of position(against button) thats why I dont raise it from CO. I want hands like A7o where I can hit my bottom card and still beat some low PPs that he could be 3betting.

I dont know about folding after the 3bet I dont think its that bad, your hand is real weak against any 3bet hand and being out of position is also bad.

[stripsqueez]

[ QUOTE ]
Flop comes no ace, no four, no paint, your action? (I presume c/f)

[/ QUOTE ]

yep

[ QUOTE ]
Flop comes 4xx, where xx is between 5-T (no paint)
C/R or bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

i would usually check raise and get scared if he 3 bets

[ QUOTE ]
IF C/R, what do you do if he just calls, the turn is a blank and he raises your bet there

[/ QUOTE ]

fold

[ QUOTE ]
IF C/R, what do you do if he just calls, the turn is a K-J, and he raises (I presume fold)

[/ QUOTE ]

sounds good

[ QUOTE ]
IF C/R, what do you do if he just calls, calls a blank turn, river is a blank? your action?

[/ QUOTE ]

hmmm - not sure - if scary cards come i'm liable to check call

[ QUOTE ]
IF C/R, what do you do if he 3bets? call down the whole way? C/F the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

probably the latter

[ QUOTE ]
If Flop is Axx xx being pretty much any 2 cards.
My action here would be check call check call bet.
-What do you do if he raises your river bet here?

[/ QUOTE ]

i think i would call

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[tolbiny]

"A4o is crap, its a button steal hand, if I noticed you raising this type of junk I'd 3bet with hands like QTo A7o KJo etc"

You will get crushed in shorthanded play doing this if you notice one or two "trash" raises. You will continually be three betting when you are dominated.

As for raising A4 UTG in a 4 handed game- i think its erfectly fine. If i felt i had been raising a lot of hands lately i would fold, if i thought i had a tighter image i would pop it.
If i had been paying attention to other tables and had several hands going on i would fold, if i had a good read on the other players at the table i again would jack it. Its marginal so any single factor could easily push it one way or the other.

[Schneids]

[ QUOTE ]
However, I'm going to point out that I've witnessed on more than one occasion Vehn open raising and folding to a 3-bet when we've played together live.

Additionally, for those who missed it, during the summer in one post I called Vehn a "limit hold em god" or something like that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now that I got everyone's panties in a bind by saying that, let me officially retract it. Vehn emailed me saying he's only done it like 2 times in his life.

Sorry for the confusion.