Hellmuthian laydown? (low content)

[ClaytonN]

$3 NLHE

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PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP3 (t5412)
CO (t2450)
Button (t2660)
SB (t15657)
BB (t3617)
UTG (t15565)
UTG+1 (t6740)
MP1 (t3418)
Hero (t19525)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls t200, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t800</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, SB calls t700, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls t600.

Flop: (t2600) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t1500</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises to t3000</font>, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls t1500.

Turn: (t8600) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets t11857 (All-In)</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: t20457

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Of course, now that I look at it the fold looks standard. Any comments on the flop play?

[snowmen]

Maybe a set with pocket 99 or 44.

[SossMan]

the fact that you have the A /images/graemlins/heart.gif makes this fold a little easier, but I think that it's still very close, especially in a $3 buy in.

[Potowame]

in a $3 buy-in the would make the same play with KQ or QJ, but I am sure you can find a better spot than that.

[ninjaunderwear]

What about 10 /images/graemlins/heart.gifJ /images/graemlins/heart.gif? Semi-bluff with "16" outs. If Hero calls, SB is getting good odds on his draw.

[schwza]

i disagree. this is not standard. based on the number of chips on the table, this looks like a rebuy tournament, shortly after the first break. in these situations, TPTK is the nuts, even with 75x stacks. i think you should have called, or gotten all-in on the flop.

[Absolution]

You didn't provide a read, but seeing the $3 makes me think it's a good fold. He has a set or 2 pair. Q9 wouldn't surprise me at all. I just lost most of my stack to almost the exact same situtation although it was earlier in the tournament. He called with Q6s and the flop gave me TPTK and him 2 pair. I raised 2/3, he reraised without hesitation. I thought he was on a draw or had a bad kicker so I came over the top. Oh well, bad play by me. He then proceeded to win another 3 or 4 all-ins calling with even worse hands. Oh well. Then you get to listen to:

"It was a good price"
"It's my favorite hand"
"I only do that online"
...

[jojobinks]

hellmuthian? nah. at these stakes anything that tough is probably just plain wrong.

i'd file this under "you can probably find a better spot, and you've got plenty of chips left."

i like the possiblity of him having 10J of hearts here. but in any case he's probably got lots of outs against you.

good laydown

[Absolution]

Ya I never said it was a tough fold, just that it was probably a good fold given the stakes and no read. If you watched him bet like that with top pair and nothing kicker or a bluff then you might play back, but without any other knowledge just fold and wait for a better spot. If he was playing every pot and betting flops like mad you might call for instance.

[Jason Strasser]

Its a three dollar tournament so im not sure what type of hand reading skills you could put to work here. A typical limp/call hand is a low-middle pocket pair. But another limp/call hand, esp at low stakes. Are mediocre Queens, hands like JTs, and well practically anything.

I think I make this call. And I also think that if I want to make this laydown I might make it to the min-raise on the turn. The river all-in almost makes me believe my hand is good, because so often when someone does a move like this they are full of it.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
What about 10 /images/graemlins/heart.gifJ /images/graemlins/heart.gif? Semi-bluff with "16" outs. If Hero calls, SB is getting good odds on his draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

why is this "16" instead of 15?

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
Its a three dollar tournament so im not sure what type of hand reading skills you could put to work here. A typical limp/call hand is a low-middle pocket pair. But another limp/call hand, esp at low stakes. Are mediocre Queens, hands like JTs, and well practically anything.

I think I make this call. And I also think that if I want to make this laydown I might make it to the min-raise on the turn. The river all-in almost makes me believe my hand is good, because so often when someone does a move like this they are full of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

min raise was on the flop, all in on the turn...if that changes anything.

I thought about laying down to the minraise on the flop, but then slapped myself.

[adanthar]

The flop minraise is what makes this suspicious. I'd be far more likely to fold to the same action on the turn.

You were either losing to Q9, tied, or far ahead of QJ/JT hearts/KQ.

[tiger7210]

I think especially in a $3 tournament I make this call and very well may have reraised him on the flop. I've seen too many times players turn over QJ/KQ or even JT /images/graemlins/heart.gif for the open ended straight flush draw. You're obviously still early in the tournament and it looks like a decent spot to gamble. I would think a player holding a set very well may have reraised you more to protect against the flush draw. Your 1/2 pot bet on the flop and then just the flat calling his miniraise may have been a sign of weakness that you were holding a hand AK /images/graemlins/heart.gif or maybe a pair smaller than the Q. Turn card is a blank and now he wants to protect his Q against the flush.

[jojobinks]

adanthar:

how can you be so specific about your read? i'm not flaming, just interested.

[Potowame]

If he was going to call the Turn push , dont you think he should have push himself to the mini-reraise on the flop? I think with just calling like he did it shows weakness, this would be enough for a blind to make this move. But with just calling the mini raise , he has no idea where he is in the hand. With that being said you gave him the oppertunity to possibly push you off the best hand, so I would either fold to the mini-raise or push over top him.

[ClaytonN]

I called to see where I was on the turn, i.e. whether or not he had a protecting hand or a draw-like hand.

In any case, his turn bet didn't leave me much choice, but ONLY because of my table presence. I was abusing the table with laggy play, so I folded and tried to find better spots. I was back to my original chip amount within about 10 minutes. In fact, I finished 16th out of 2100 or so and won like $50.

And, the other player told me later "nice laydown, I had the best hand" and "I was hoping you were a bad player and stick to the AQ". (I told him I had AQ). With this remark I think he had the set or two pair in hindsight, but I can never be sure.

Also, this was a freezeout. Not a rebuy. I was top 10 in chips, he was top 30 or so in chips.

[ClaytonN]

[ QUOTE ]
You're obviously still early in the tournament and it looks like a decent spot to gamble.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you kidding? I'm top ten in chips early and the tournament and you expect me to make a gamble with a guy who's like top 30 in chips?

I could easily see making this move against a small stack, but a wrong decision here puts me back in normal stack territory, and I'm enjoying my big stack.

[MLG]

If you don't use your big stack to try and grow it, then what's the point of having the big stack. If you don't risk the big stack now, you will find yourself with a medium to small stack in an hour or two. The fact that you have a lot of chips, and he has a decent amount is an argument for calling, not for folding.

[Masquerade]

It's $3! Call.

[partygirluk]

Does anyone else think the bet on the flop should be higher on this board?

[tiger7210]

The blinds are at 200 so you're only 1 1/2 hours into the tournament. In any tournament I've ever played on Stars, that's still early. I don't know how you got so many chips this early but normally most I've seen especially in a $3 tournament got them from making very risky plays and getting lucky. So if villain already has that many chips there's a good chance he's been willing to gamble and may thus be doing so here purely on a flush draw. If you're wrong here you still have over 20x BB. Sure that's not a big stack anymore but if you're right you run the table over for a while especially showing down AQ and sending a message that you're not going to get pushed off the best hand.

[ClaytonN]

[ QUOTE ]
If you don't use your big stack to try and grow it, then what's the point of having the big stack. If you don't risk the big stack now, you will find yourself with a medium to small stack in an hour or two. The fact that you have a lot of chips, and he has a decent amount is an argument for calling, not for folding.

[/ QUOTE ]

I highly respect your opinion, which is why I'd like you to elaborate on this more. I really hate being the caller in this position, especially since I have the ace of hearts.

It's one thing to push people around when you've got the big stack, it's another thing to call.

I got the big chip stack by making erratic plays and overall playing hyper-aggressive. But there's a difference, in my mind anyways, between putting the opponent to a decision when you have a good hand, and you being the one to make this decision yourself.

As to the "It's only $3, call!" comment, well of course it's only three bucks, but just because that's a small amount doesn't mean I should automatically piss it away when I don't have the best of it. This kind of sheepish attitude towards the smaller tournaments will not be a great mindset when I have the bankroll to support playing larger tournaments in the future.

[MLG]

You are right, there is a large difference between raising/betting and calling. In this situation, though, my point was if you call and lose you will still have a lot of chips left. In my mind that is an argument for a call.

Overall, I think that you will be shown KQ and QJ (and maybe even Q10) here way too much to fold.