Joe Tall and Clarkmeister mix it up again. Put us on hands. [Archive]

Joe Tall

01-30-2005, 08:05 PM

Same 20/40 as the first post. Put us on hands again.

Clark limps UTG and I raise UTG+1, I think there was one cold caller.

Flop: 983 with 2 spades.

Clark checks, I bet, there's a fold I think, Clark calls, heads up.

Turn: off suit 9

Clark checks, I check.

River: 4 of spades

Clark checks, I bet, Clark calls.

Go Pats!
Joe Tall

Joe Tall

01-30-2005, 08:25 PM

Ok boys, this one is not so easy. The key, as it always is, position position position.

Go Pats!
Joe Tall

Michael Davis

01-30-2005, 08:28 PM

Meh. There's no way to do this one.

-Michael

Clarkmeister

01-30-2005, 08:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Meh. There's no way to do this one.

-Michael

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe, but our position should give you some clue, the range of hands either of us can have shouldn't be very large.

DMBFan23

01-30-2005, 08:41 PM

you: two very high spades, something like KQs. - something strong enough to raise UTG+1, but weak enough to take the free card.

clark: 77. I can't think of any other hand he plays this way, maybe A8s?

Joe Tall

01-30-2005, 08:43 PM

77. I can't think of any other hand he plays this way, maybe A8s?

He is UTG now. I'm not saying he always folds these UTG but the was of average aggression and there are 9 other hands to act behind him.

Go Pats!
Joe Tall

thirddan

01-30-2005, 08:44 PM

from the other posts i recall the game being pretty loose...

UTG you will probably limp with small pairs and maybe suited connectors, i highly doubt that you have broadway cards here or Ax...

Joe could have any normal raising hand - med/large PP or high cards AK/AQ/AJ/KQ/KJ...

once the turn hits i believe Joe checks through with a spade draw since you probably aren't folding any pair once the board pairs, but i also don't think Joe has a medium pair since he woudnt want to give free cards to a hand like QJ or Ax...

Meh, Joe has A-broadway spades and Clark has 55/66/77 /images/graemlins/smile.gif

sthief09

01-30-2005, 08:45 PM

Clark has a pocket pair. I don't see you betting the river with AQ or AK, so you have a frush, with a couple of broadway spades. I'll say Clark has 55. I don't see you giving a free card on the turn with an overpair either. from Clark's perspective on the river, he doesn't expect you to bet with AK, though you might call with AK. I would be surprised then that he wouldn't bet a small pair on the river. I think it's very possible he has just an A (not sure what A he'd limp with though), expecting you to only bet a flush or KQ or KJs type of hand.

sthief09

01-30-2005, 08:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
77. I can't think of any other hand he plays this way, maybe A8s?

He is UTG now. I'm not saying he always folds these UTG but the was of average aggression and there are 9 other hands to act behind him.

Go Pats!
Joe Tall

[/ QUOTE ]

I got the impression the game was loose and passive

Joe Tall

01-30-2005, 08:50 PM

I got the impression the game was loose and passive

It was more weak tight. So when players did have and resemblence of a hand, they would raise.

Go Pats!
Joe Tall

Clarkmeister

01-30-2005, 08:54 PM

FYI, I don't fold 77 UTG.

Joe Tall

01-30-2005, 08:59 PM

FYI, I don't fold 77 UTG.

I didn't think so. In fact you saw me raise it UTG, flop a set and then get all tagled up on that AQ7Qx board. Of course you were the BB.

Go Pats!
Joe Tall

btspider

01-30-2005, 09:01 PM

i don't think JT bets the river with Ace-high (if he even takes a free card with it).

JT has something that is either safe from a free card (stronger PP than Clark's PF UTG limping range), or wants a free card, a flush draw).

I think JT would bet bigger PP's figuring Clark would calldown with any PP of his own (?).. JT also may not have something to showdown if he misses his flush.. so I'll guess:

JT: K/images/graemlins/spade.gifQ/images/graemlins/spade.gif (or K/images/graemlins/spade.gifJ/images/graemlins/spade.gif)

Clark not betting the river looks like he fears the flush hitting and wants to showdown a baby pair.

Clark: 77/66 or similar

Barry

01-30-2005, 09:01 PM

I suppose that the easy answer is you have something like AK/Q/J/T /images/graemlins/spade.gif and Clark has something like 77

BottlesOf

01-30-2005, 09:04 PM

99 and ATs /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Joe Tall

01-30-2005, 09:05 PM

After the hand, Clark says, "You missed a bet." I still blank on this holding but talking to him after, I get it now.

Go Pats!
Joe Tall

DMBFan23

01-30-2005, 09:07 PM

"I think JT would bet bigger PP's figuring Clark would calldown with any PP of his own (?)"

Yeah I thought about this a little, but I don't know the proper "give a free card" versus "avoid checkraises/induce bluffs with hands that have showdown value" balance at 20/40, especially versus clark. I would imagine the default line would be to bet a bigger PP on the turn though

Clarkmeister

01-30-2005, 09:17 PM

I'm posting *my* hand only because I think the hand becomes more interesting to discuss from that perspective, and everyone is going to guess a pretty similar hand for me.

I had AdKd.

BottlesOf

01-30-2005, 09:18 PM

Interesting. I was pretty sure you had a big ace, but what ace would you limp with utg...unless of course...bingo. But why didn't you re-raise?

Clarkmeister

01-30-2005, 09:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Interesting. I was pretty sure you had a big ace, but what ace would you limp with utg...unless of course...bingo. But why didn't you re-raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because the 3rd player in the hand was pretty decent, and Joe is tight enough that I don't really *want* to 3-bet him when he raises UTG1 despite my UTG limp.

thirddan

01-30-2005, 09:25 PM

hmmm, i can't seem to figure out the kind of table you are at...the other hand has 6 players to the flop and you played A8o...but here you don't want to raise UTG with a premium multiway hand...would you have 3bet if the raiser was someone other than Joe?

Edit: also, if you feel that Joe missed a bet on the turn why did you call him on the river, you obviously don't think your hand is good?

sthief09

01-30-2005, 09:31 PM

A7s? ATo? I really didn't think you'd bet the river. I said I thought he'd call with A-high because he didn't think you'd bet with A-high, just a flush or K-high, and I said I didn't think you'd bet with A high since you wouldn't expect him to have AND call with a worse A. clearly something has to give. interesting.

Barry

01-30-2005, 09:31 PM

Alright, I get the open limp part as you've got this too aggro guy to your left and limp/reraising is fun. But you forget to 3-bet preflop, that part I just don't understand.

Clarkmeister

01-30-2005, 09:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Alright, I get the open limp part as you've got this too aggro guy to your left and limp/reraising is fun. But you forget to 3-bet preflop, that part I just don't understand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't consider Joe "too aggro". I would've limp-reraised anyone else, but with it only being 3 handed, and Joe playing pretty tight and being aware of my limp, I decided the better play was calling and concealing my hand. I could be wrong, but I think most of the hands he raises with in that exact spot are hands that I don't particularly gain a ton against by 3-betting. And the ones I do gain a ton against, I could easily gain even more against by disguising my hand.

sthief09

01-30-2005, 09:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Alright, I get the open limp part as you've got this too aggro guy to your left and limp/reraising is fun. But you forget to 3-bet preflop, that part I just don't understand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't consider Joe "too aggro". I would've limp-reraised anyone else, but with it only being 3 handed, and Joe playing pretty tight and being aware of my limp, I decided the better play was calling and concealing my hand. I could be wrong, but I think most of the hands he raises with in that exact spot are hands that I don't particularly gain a ton against by 3-betting. And the ones I do gain a ton against, I could easily gain even more against by disguising my hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

so I'll take that to mean you had AJs, ATs, or AQo? a lot of Roy Cooke's articles include him limping, or considering limping with AJs type hands because they're "volume hands." it'll be interesting if you in fact had AJs

Joe Tall

01-30-2005, 09:42 PM

I could be wrong, but I think most of the hands he raises with in that exact spot are hands that I don't particularly gain a ton against by 3-betting. And the ones I do gain a ton against, I could easily gain even more against by disguising my hand.

No you are not wrong, as usual, you are spot on.

Clarkmeister

01-30-2005, 09:42 PM

I posted my hand already. Check the initial "semi-results" post.

sthief09

01-30-2005, 09:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I posted my hand already. Check the initial "semi-results" post.

[/ QUOTE ]

crap, I thought you were Joe and posted that

Joe Tall

01-30-2005, 09:44 PM

I had AsKs and made the flush on the river. I thought Clark had 66, but when he said, "you missed a bet", I had no idea but I was too busy grilling Ed about his new girlfriend to think about it until after Ed left.

I love nerds,
Joe Tall

sthief09

01-30-2005, 09:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I could be wrong, but I think most of the hands he raises with in that exact spot are hands that I don't particularly gain a ton against by 3-betting. And the ones I do gain a ton against, I could easily gain even more against by disguising my hand.

No you are not wrong, as usual, you are spot on.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just wanna know what you checked through the turn with, and then bet the river with. I hope it was K-high or a frush, because otherwise I'm going to be confused /images/graemlins/smile.gif

BottlesOf

01-30-2005, 09:45 PM

I did a stove and it's about 60/40. Do you still think there is more gained by disguising the hand even with the third player?

Joe Tall

01-30-2005, 09:47 PM

I did a stove and it's about 60/40

Now Clark limped UTG, he'll have me limping w/more here.

thirddan

01-30-2005, 09:48 PM

woohoo, i would have been right if Clark wasn't so sneaky...

BottlesOf

01-30-2005, 09:48 PM

you'll limp 99? KQ/AJ? KJs?

Clarkmeister

01-30-2005, 09:48 PM

Yes, because I was out of position and the 3rd player will overplay hands against me if I stay calm preflop, but if I start limp-raising, I lose that from him.

BottlesOf

01-30-2005, 09:49 PM

Cool.

Barry

01-30-2005, 09:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]

After the hand, Clark says, "You missed a bet." I still blank on this holding but talking to him after, I get it now.

[/ QUOTE ]

So we must have gotten it backwards, Clark had the suited slick and you had some middling pair.

Joe Tall

01-30-2005, 09:50 PM

KQ/AJ?

Off, yes. 99, eh, close. 88, yes. Trust me, I looked at my cards, looked left (habit I developed) and then my eyes popped open when I heard the sound of chips hit to my right and it wasn't a lot of chips. I thought, "hmmmm, Clark limped UTG, wtf does that mean?"

Go Pats!
Joe Tall

Joe Tall

01-30-2005, 09:51 PM

you had some middling pair.

Nah, I bet the turn. You know this.

Go Pats!
Joe Tall

BottlesOf

01-30-2005, 09:52 PM

Yea, I think my 60/40 figure is accurate then, or very close to it. Clarks says despite this, it's better canceling the re-raise. I'm fine with that.

Clarkmeister

01-30-2005, 09:52 PM

Barry,

I still remember how your eyes fairly popped out of your head that time I had a showdown and you saw that I had limped UTG with JJ. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

thirddan

01-30-2005, 09:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
limped UTG with JJ.

[/ QUOTE ]

is there an explanation or certain table make up that would make this the best play? it makes more sense to me with a hand like AKs than with a hand like JJ...