How Long Did It Take You To Become a Winning 10+1 Player

[nebben]

I have been playing 10+1s seriously for about a month. I have read Aleo Magus' guide, and it helped me, but I still feel like I am not a winning player. It seems like beating the 10+1 should be easy, the way everyone talks about it. I have run through one full bankroll (30 buyins), and I don't know if I am just an idiot who is terrible at poker, or if this is a normal learnign process. How much (time and money) did it take you to learn how to win.

[spentrent]

1) How many games have you played?

2) What is your ROI?

3) What is your ITM percentage?

You probably don't have enough of a sample to make a real conclusion, but if you're saying that you have lost 30 games in a row there's probably something to be gleaned from that. Post some hand histories where you felt "uncomfortable."

[El Maximo]

I think you should have someone look at the a few tournament hand histories. If you lost 30 buy-ins at the 10s you are having a really bad run or there are some big leaks in your game.

[FishBurger]

I started out at the limit $6s about two years ago and was able to beat them within a month. If I recall correctly, I didn't feel comfortable at the NL $6s until a few months had past. It takes a while to learn how much to bet in NL tourneys.

I started playing the NL $11s at around 4 months and started taking shots at the NL $22s sometime around 6 or 8 months. Now, almost two years later, I am starting to take shots at the $33s.

I remember that I struggled at the NL $11s for quite a while. In NL, you can make mistakes that knock you out of the tourney in a single hand, so even if you are only making one or two mistakes a tourney, that might be all it takes to knock you out.

You might want to move over to PokerStars and play the NL SnGs there. You get 1500 starting chips at Stars which should make it easier for a tight player to get in the money. The downside is that the tourneys take longer, but that's not such a bad thing when you are just learning the game.

[nebben]

Any offers? I would really appreciate it, but unfortunately I don't have the money to pay any of you, and there probably wouldn't be that much debate over a hand history because I play pretty ABC beginners style (mostly)

[El Maximo]

PM me. I will look over some if you need help. Im no expert but can certainly get you started in the right direction.

[Slim Pickens]

It took about three months for me to feel comfortable at the 10+1 level. For the first two, I thought I was playing "solid beginner ABC poker." My VPIP was below 20% in the early levels... and so on and so on. ROI: -47%. This was not a statistical fluke. I had more 4ths than ITM. It was just really, really bad play at the wrong times. I gave it up and went to limit, where I could make a few mistakes and still have my overall better play (and learning the term "on the bubble") come through. 146 limit tournaments, ROI +10%. Break-even anyway. Now I'm back to NL after A LOT MORE studying of the basics and doing much better. The results aren't statistically significant yet but they're definitely more encouraging. Switching to limit for a while might give you a bit of a safety net.

I'd be happy to take a look at a transcript if you'd like, although taking my advice could be -EV. (I got seriously put back in my place by a real player after giving bad advice before...) You get what you pay for anyway.

Slim

[willie24]

if you have been playing for a month and are still down, i'd guess there's about a 99% chance you are playing poorly.

if you understand tournament poker, you will be able to beat online $10 tourneys immediately. playing Low buy-in SNGs is arguably the easiest way to make good profits with a small bankroll.

it's good that you're trying to improve. poor play is nothing to be ashamed of. i guarantee that you can easily learn to beat these games.

send me some hand histories if you like

[Okee]

There `must' be a hole in your game. I read one strat guide (winningonlinepoker.com) and cracked the $5 + .50 in a week. Another week at $10 +1 and up to 20 +2... I'm not saying this to brag, but I can't imagine any statistical way to go on a 30 game slide. Now, I was already an experienced NL ring game player when I started, so if you have no experience with the NL game it can take some getting used to. If you're going to make another run at it I suggest playing at the UB or PS $5 + .50s for a while til you get it right.

[Slim Pickens]

Your post motivated me to figure out what created the "-47% ROI era" for me. From looking at a number of tournaments I played early on with the hand replayer (http://teamfu.freeshell.org/replayer.html#), my play wasn't nearly as bad overall as I remembered, in fact, I'd say 7/10 of the hands are par with what I consider solid strategy now. Two things came screaming out at me though.

1) Abysmal play off the blinds... absolutely bleeding chips by sticking with second pair, bad kicker or other such garbage. You only have to do this once to diminish a healthy stack.
2) Absolutely no concept at how to bluff... It doesn't work if a) your bet is so weak your opponents don't have odds to fold to anything, b) you do it all the freaking time, and c) you don't fold if they play back at you after you've already screwed up.

I found it really helped to replay the tournament as a whole, so I could see why it was a bad idea to sink half my stack into one of the aforementioned loose-passive bluffs early on. Later, when I picked up AA, I only doubled my short stack. It's just simple stuff like that.

[dcoles11]

I started with a very small bank roll and played the $5 buy in SNG tourneys. Once I doubled my my bank roll I started playing $10 SNG tourneys, I had pretty much the same success, only difference is I would sometimes run into probably someone from this site that was making a living at the $10 tables. For the most part, the level of play seems to be the same in my opinion.

[nuclear500]

#2 is where I'm at now. I feel I play solid good poker for being < 10 months old, but bluffing its not really part of my regular game play? I have to have an extremely solid read on my opponents, or have had a couple big hands called down by a weaker hand in order to pull it off - basically being respected when I raise 4-5x.

Maybe its the limit? $5.50 and $11.00 NL I play at and it seems people simply love their pocket pairs or Ace rags and you can't push um off.

[johnny005]

I think I'm in the same boat as nebben here. I've been playing 22's and 11's and im about 30%ITM, and +6.5% ROI I feel I should be doing better than this but I dont know if there are any serious leeks in my play, could anyone take a look at my hand historys and let me know what they think PM me and i'll send you a few to take a look at
Thanks in advance

[realbad101]

I think rather than a deluge of respondents asking other respondents to review hand history, just post some hands.

If you are not winning at 10+1, then there are probably some major gaps in your game as all have noted. Drop down to 5+1, not because the competition is any worse (it is, although just marginally), but this will allow you to develop a winning style cheaper.

My story...
After a year or so of limit play, with the occaisonal tournament thrown in, I've decided this year to concentrate more on tournaments. I started playing 10+1s' about 2 weeks ago and I am running over 50% ITM. My sample size is too small to really post numbers, but anecdotally, I just feel like I am crushing this game. Right now I am wondering a few things...

My 1st, 2nd and 3rd percentages are evenly split. What is a good goal for a distribution of these?

When is it time to move up? What is a statistically valid sample size, and goal ITM and ROI that would lead one to believe he is ready for the next level?

[asofel]

[ QUOTE ]
I feel I play solid good poker for being < 10 months old

[/ QUOTE ]

I couldn't even walk until I was 12 months old...

[willie]

a while, you have to learn to weed out the leaks in your game and that only comes with practice and careful observation.

now as far as bad streaks

i'm in the middle of one right now- i've never seen so many 2 and 3 outters just killin me on the bubble......i feel like droppin from the 30s back to the tens to save myself money on these horrendous beats.

[se2schul]

I bought in for $100. I was playing the $5+1 until my bankroll was over $200. I went up to the $10+1 and started on a HUGE losing streak. I lost my entire BR and had to rebuy. I did lots of reading and studying for about 3 weeks, but not much playing.
I bought in again for $100, turned that into $600 which I keep as my BR for the $10+1 and the odd $20+1 as I'm in the process of moving up.

I guess it took me about 3 months to feel like I could easily beat the $10's. Now I 4-table them while watching movies with my GF with an ROI of just under 29% and ITM = 43%.

My stats aren't spectacular, but I have a good job and just look at poker winnings as a bonus for something I would probably be doing even if I were a break-even player.

I'm not sure how many SNGs you played during the month, but if it was only 150 or so, you may just be on a bad swing. Having some good people (much better than me) critique your hand history will tell you if it was bad luck or bad play.

ss