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TylerD
01-30-2005, 02:46 PM
Thats what I felt like saying anyway after getting chastised for these calls. What do you think? Both are from $60 Turbo's on Stars.

Hand 1

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP1 (t1080)
MP2 (t1670)
CO (t1760)
Button (t2925)
Hero (t1025)
BB (t2180)
UTG (t2860)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, CO calls t100, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t300) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t200</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to t400</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to t1660</font>, Hero calls t725 (All-In), BB folds.

I'm getting 2.5:1, easy call, right?

Hand 2
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG (t2828)
MP (t677)
Button (t4030)
SB (t2350)
Hero (t3615)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises to t652</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls t452.

The converter has omitted the fact that everyone posted a 25T ante, so I'm getting 2.4:1.

spentrent
01-30-2005, 02:56 PM
Hand 1

Why lead here? Doing so just about commits you to pushing in all your chips in response to any action. Sure, you have the pot odds to call the reraises to win an appropriate amount of tournament chips... but 2 out of every 3 times you put yourself in this situation you lose a buy-in. Tourney chips aren't real money. In a ring game I'm right with ya.

Hand 2

No problems here. Let the whiners whine.

Benholio
01-30-2005, 03:18 PM
Hand #1: Well, you can't really count all 8 of your outs here. 2 of your outs put a 3-flush on the board, and your opponent could be drawing to a full house that nullifies your draw completely. Even if you want to call it 7 outs, you don't quite have the pot odds to call for straight chip EV. On top of that, the tourney EV of calling here will be even less.

adanthar
01-30-2005, 03:57 PM
Hand 1: Fold PF. Check the flop and then fold to that action.

Hand 2: Fine.

binions
01-30-2005, 04:24 PM
[ QUOTE ]


Hand 1

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP1 (t1080)
MP2 (t1670)
CO (t1760)
Button (t2925)
Hero (t1025)
BB (t2180)
UTG (t2860)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, CO calls t100, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t300) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t200</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to t400</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to t1660</font>, Hero calls t725 (All-In), BB folds.

I'm getting 2.5:1, easy call, right?



[/ QUOTE ]

Hey - just think if you led at the flop for 400 instead of 200 - your odds on the call would have been even better!

Realistically you have 6 to 8 outs, which is 25-32%. Your are putting in 33% of the chips on the betting round if the BB calls, 38% of the chips if the BB folds.

Looking at it broadly, not a +EV round of betting for you.

Looking at it based solely on the call, you are calling 725 to win 2025. 2.8:1 If you have 6 outs, that's 3:1. You don't have an overlay (unless the BB calls, giving you 3.5:1 pot odds).

If you have 8 outs that you have a slight overlay even if the BB folds (2.1:1 to hit straight v. 2.8:1 pot odds).

Anyway you look at it, a marginal play.

stripsqueez
01-30-2005, 07:10 PM
its because i dont want to pay to draw post flop that i fold hand 1 pre-flop - its still early in this tournament and i see no reason to start taking marginal positions

hand 2 seems reasonable

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

willie24
01-30-2005, 07:54 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Looking at it based solely on the call, you are calling 725 to win 2025.

[/ QUOTE ]

huh? i get 725 to win a 2550 pot. if the BB calls, then it's a 3075 pot. If the BB folds you have a 1/3 chance here. if the CO somehow had a flush draw, 7s and 8s might be outs for you, so i think you can count all your outs to the straight against 1 opponent. if BB calls (if he had a flush draw he likely would have either called your flop bet or push-raised, not miniraised) then a CO's flush draw would hurt you. but that is scenario will not occur that often, and when it does, you are drawing to a larger pot-which will help soften the flush draw blow. I think the call is good, and folding would be wrong.

*I realize that the backdoor flush draw will hurt you. i guess you subtract about 2.5% or roughly one out for that.

I agree that you should fold preflop.

I don't agree that the flop bet was bad. Pushing or check-raise pushing may have been better, but a check-fold (vs a small bet) or especially a check-call is worse. there's 300 there for the taking, and 300 is a lot at this point in your game.

ChrisV
01-30-2005, 08:21 PM
Hand 1: As others have said, fold preflop because if you hit a flop like this you can't play anyway. On the flop you should check and fold to bets of that size.

Hand 2: Narrowly a call if you put MP on a reasonable range of hands (say pairs, aces, K8/Q9/JT+), but it will be a fold if you think he's the type to wait for aces all the way to UTG or BB.

Phil Van Sexton
01-30-2005, 09:02 PM
Pushing on the flop in hand #1 would certainly be reasonable. This would probably eliminate the flush draws and give you a couple more outs if called by a Q or set.

As already stated, betting 200 is just giving yourself an excuse to lose all your chips later.

David100
01-30-2005, 09:57 PM
ok hand two. against a random hand you have a 34% chance of winning.

pot is 425 and your paying 452 to see. This would be a fold to me as -EV. i know the rule because you are a large chip stack, but you can so easily double him up. i would wait for a better hand to bust him.

Also i would not call, because i like to save my chips, so that i can bully and steal.

David

ChrisV
01-30-2005, 10:50 PM
I screwed up my maths (again). The 52 hand is a fold against a typical range from MP. Your win% is about 30% and you're calling for about 34% of the total pot.

binions
01-31-2005, 01:34 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Looking at it based solely on the call, you are calling 725 to win 2025.

[/ QUOTE ]

huh? i get 725 to win a 2550 pot. if the BB calls, then it's a 3075 pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

You calculate pot odds by figuring what's in the pot, and how much it costs you to call. "Pot:call" is pot odds.

So, we know 300 is in the pot preflop.

Hero bets 200. He is raised to 400 total, and then he is re-raised all in (725).

300+200+400+400+725=2025

So, there was 2025 in the pot, and to keep playing, he had to call 725.

Pot odds 2025:725, or 2.8:1

If you figure the BB will call too, then you are risking 725 to win 2025 in the pot + 725 more from the BB, or 2850:725 (3.9:1)

For reference, here again was the action:

MP1 (t1080)
MP2 (t1670)
CO (t1760)
Button (t2925)
Hero (t1025)
BB (t2180)
UTG (t2860)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 8, 7.
3 folds, CO calls t100, 1 fold, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t300) 6, 5, Q (3 players)
Hero bets t200, BB raises to t400, CO raises to t1660, Hero calls t725 (All-In), BB folds.

TylerD
01-31-2005, 06:20 AM
Hand 1: My reasoning on the flop was that a 200 bet in an unraised pot would win the pot quite frequently. If the BB had folded and the CO had gone all-in I would have probably layed it down. However given the action in the hand I thought making a marginal call was the best decision - should I win it would give me a big stack and a great opportunity to steal the blinds (which would be getting relativly large, soon).

I'm not totally adverse to folding preflop, but I think its close.

NB: Number of outs. I think counting a full 8 outs here is OK. If the CO is on a flush draw, I could have 10 outs, if he has top pair he might not have a heart, giving me a backdoor flush draw.

Hand 2: I thought it was close, and as such I thought a call would be better for image reasons. If they think I defend my blind with 52o they'll think twice before trying to steal it.