100 nl TT button decision

[Chaostracize]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Hero (t1390)
SB (t670)
BB (t1580)
UTG (t440)
UTG+1 (t885)
MP1 (t1067)
MP2 (t910)
CO (t3058)

Preflop: Hero is Button with T/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif.


The converter wasn't working, so here's the action.

UTG pushed and MP1 called. What's your action here and why?

[spentrent]

You're getting about 2 to 1 pre-flop but you're a 4 to 1 dog if JJ-AA is in front of you... and only slightly better than a coinflip if AK is in front of you. Seems likely that at least AK is out there. I'd rather pass and wait for a situation when I'm more likely to be a bigger favorite than a coinflip. If I call, I'm hoping that I'm up against 2 hands both in the range of 22-99. I doubt that here.

[miracle7s]

if u folded TT u no doubtedly folded the best hand no if The caller had JJ-AA he would've pushed all his chips instead of calling because he wouldn't want someone else to suck out on him unless he had aces and wanted you to come over the top however I to would fold the tens because on PP somehow you wouldn't gotten sucked out on so you did the right thing.

[spentrent]

[ QUOTE ]
if u folded TT u no doubtedly folded the best hand no if The caller had JJ-AA he would've pushed all his chips instead of calling because he wouldn't want someone else to suck out on him unless he had aces and wanted you to come over the top however I to would fold the tens because on PP somehow you wouldn't gotten sucked out on so you did the right thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. MP1 is risking almost half his stack to call here. It might as well be a push. If I have JJ-AA, I am NOT scared of the possibility of two hands sucking out on me.

Say you have AA and two people call your big bet. They show KK and QQ. That's a mere 4 outs that will break your heart. Say there's a fourth guy with JJ. Oh no, 6 outs!

I'm DANCING NAKED when this situation comes up, not fearing a long-shot suck-out.

[Crosby]

I would call here. UTG's range of hands is clearly very wide considering his stack and the blinds hitting him next hand, quite possibly wider than it should be. Given this I don't think MP1's call should set off alarm bells that you're dominated at all. While he might be trying to trap with AA etc, I don't think you can assume this. If I flopped an overpair here, I'd definitely be getting it all in. Btw, one factor here for me is that you have enough chips to call and still have a decent stack if you have to fold.

[spentrent]

[ QUOTE ]
I would call here. UTG's range of hands is clearly very wide considering his stack and the blinds hitting him next hand, quite possibly wider than it should be. Given this I don't think MP1's call should set off alarm bells that you're dominated at all. While he might be trying to trap with AA etc, I don't think you can assume this. If I flopped an overpair here, I'd definitely be getting it all in. Btw, one factor here for me is that you have enough chips to call and still have a decent stack if you have to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that UTG has a gigantic range now, but MP1 is acting awfully early to be playing a marginal hand here. MP1 knows what everyone else knows on the table -- that UTG is pushing a crap hand. It smells like a trap, and even if I'm favored because there are say, 2 (maybe 3) overcards in the villains' hands, I still don't feel comfortable putting my life on the line as a slight favorite.

[Crosby]

At what point in the hand do you feel uncomfortable, as though you are putting your life on the line as a small favorite? Let's assume you had 900 chips instead of 1400. Clearly your options would become all-in or fold, and with the risk of a trap and the amount of equity you have even in good situations, a fold seems good. Here, however, you can see the flop getting 2.5-1, fold if it comes down bad, and still have a comfortable stack.

It seems like the big difference in our perspective is how we see MP1's range of hands. I agree that a trap with a higher pocket pair is a real possibility. However, I think against an unknown party opponent you've got to factor in the possibility that you're passing up a fantastic situation in which MP1 just has two overs or even worse, such as a lower pocket pair or just one over. I realize that doesn't make sense given his play but I think it's a significant % in an unknown player's range.

Also, in the event that MP1 just made a sketchy call, you are in a fantastic position postflop to pick up the rest of his chips, as he's likely to semibluff/call away his chips with overs. Of course, there are a variety of ways it can work out badly, from having him dominated and folding anyway if the flop is threatening, to getting trapped against a bigger pair. What it comes down to for me though is that MP1 is probably just dumb, you're only really getting burned if he has a higher pocket pair and the flop comes down 9 and below since you can still steal and operate well if you fold the flop, and if you win, you are now in a totally different position with around 3k in chips.

[TylerD]

MP1 flat called? Seems suspicious to me. I don't think you'd be giving up too much by folding here.

[Texas Pete]

I think MP1 wants someone to push so he can call.
I'm folding my TT here.

[Elektrik]

At the 100's, unless this guy is a complete fish, my default play is to fold, and expect him to flip up AA, KK, or maybe QQ. I don't know any decent players who would cold call half their stack without raising unless they weren't afraid of being raised.

[Chaostracize]

Thanks for the comments so far. General consensus is to fold, but I'm not convinced.

With UTG having 4.5ish BBs he could be pushing any A and any PP. Myabe a KQ KJ type hand.

I see MP1 calling here with anything from 66-AA and probably AJ/T-AK. I felt pretty confident that a TT-KK hand would RR to protect against an ace falling.

What it came down to was that I felt like UTG had a mid range pocket pair that I had beat or a weak ace and MP had something like AJ or AQ. I called.

Comments on this? I'll post results after I get some more feedback.

[stripsqueez]

[ QUOTE ]
MP1 flat called? Seems suspicious to me. I don't think you'd be giving up too much by folding here.

[/ QUOTE ]

thats what i think although i'm tempted - if i didnt fold its an auto push - calling is dumb

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[spentrent]

[ QUOTE ]
Comments on this? I'll post results after I get some more feedback.

[/ QUOTE ]

As an aside, I don't think the results really matter...

[ChrisV]

I think MP1 is most likely to have a big ace. 77-99 are also possible but those hands are less likely to be dealt than nonpair hands. MP may also have AA or KK.

MP will almost certainly not fold if you reraise. If you call he will probably bet if he hits the flop and check otherwise, whereupon you can bet and probably get him to fold.

I think calling is the right move by a small margin, but I don't fault folding. If you had a smaller stack, say 900, folding would be right because you are putting too much of your stack at risk.

[ChrisV]

Calling is dumb why? MP is almost certainly not going to fold. There are a lot of flops he will fold on, though. He's not going to bluff on the flop because of the allin player. For pushing to be right, you would want to be seeing 77-99 here a fair bit more than AK-AJ.

[Chaostracize]

When I said called, I meant raised all-in. Oops.

[stripsqueez]

[ QUOTE ]
Calling is dumb why?

[/ QUOTE ]

hmmm - when i posted i had a different idea about the stack sizes - i should read the original post more carefully - i thought it was dumb to call because i couldnt imagine a flop where i wanted to fold - i guess its not too bad to call and fold if the other guy pushes on an unfavourable flop because you would still have a decent stack

i still prefer pushing to calling - its a dangerous assumption that the other guy will only push on the flop when he is in front

in practice i think i would push if i thought the other guy was simply trying to pick off a desperate short stack but most of the time i would fold because its a marginal spot and i probably dont like that he didnt push over the small stack

stripsqueez - chickenhawk