Trying to make ends meet, you're a slave to money then you die...

[Schneids]

It's a bittersweet symphony... 1 of these was a success and 1 was a failure. Which do you think was more likely to succeed against an unknown?


Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Schneids is BB with 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Schneids calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) T/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Schneids checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Schneids raises</font>, Button calls.

Turn: (4.25 BB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Schneids bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Schneids 3-bets</font>



Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Schneids is Button with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls, <font color="#CC3333">Schneids raises</font>, SB calls, BB calls, MP calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, MP checks, <font color="#CC3333">Schneids bets</font>, SB folds, BB folds, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Schneids 3-bets</font>

[spydog]

Hand 1: Any overpair or T is likely to take the smoothcall CR and raise the turn line. However, the strength you have shown has convinced even the dumbest opponents that you are holding a T or 22, so you have a lot of fold equity with your 3-bet because no one likes calling bets when they are drawing dead.

Hand 2: Opponent is unlikely to be convinced that you have a 4 and will likely see the turn with any overcards, PP, or 7. I'm not thinking your 3-bet will get him to fold the flop, but is likely to get him to fold overcards on the turn.

[scratchy1]

Id go with the second one. Seems fairly often opponents will check raise the preflop raiser on a low card paired board with absolutely nothing. When you show them you are serious and will be showing down they sometimes just fold right there.

I think you're in trouble in the first hand which makes me think i'm probably wrong about your specific outcomes. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[flawless_victory]

HAND 2 I LIKE AND I OFTEN USE THIS LINE MYSELF... HAND 1, NOT SO MUCH... IF THE GUY FOLDED THEN YOU CERTAINLY HAD THE BEST HAND...

[stripsqueez]

i feel better about the second one

i've decided the shackles were broken since i stopped asking the hole in the wall for a balance

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[gonores]

I doubt I'll ever understand hand 2. Most opponents are going to think you're making a free-card/cheap showdown play here. If I'm unconvinced about my opponent having a pair here, I'll raise the turn and fire once more on the river.

I sorta like hand 1. Except for the "sorta" part. I'd assume you're folding to a cap.

[Blackjack]

Yikes..

If plays like these are considered very good SH hold'em then I'm in big trouble because I dont understand the logic behind either hand.

You're a great player Schneids and I loved the 60k in 60 days but I dont really understand either of these hands.

[fyodor]

Unknowns are typically poor players. Poor players won't lay down anything they think is a hand. Any pair is a hand.

In scenario 1 there is no way most unknowns lay down anything that beats you. He was only in with a steal raise though so he could have absolutely anything. The fact he raised your turn bet tells me is either very brave or has at least a deuce. If he has anything he is calling down. If he folds you were most likely good anyhow.

Scenario 2 I believe you have a better shot. Plenty of players (even bad ones) will checkraise the flop assuming you raised with 2 big cards, missed the flop, and are just throwing in a contiunation bet. I have seen the checkraiser lay down to the 3 bet plenty of times. (Normally I have something when I make the 3 bet though /images/graemlins/smile.gif ) So you may get him to toss an Ace.

[Gazza]

[ QUOTE ]

Yikes..
If plays like these are considered very good SH hold'em then I'm in big trouble because I dont understand the logic behind either hand.


[/ QUOTE ]

Hand 2

Schneids is the pre flop raiser, everyone checked to him and he bets as one does.

With 9 SB in the pot and just rags and a pre flop raiser who may just have overcards MP decides it's worth taking a stab at the pot. So he raises.

With 11 SB in the pot and two overcards against a possible bluff raise Schneids obviously cannot fold.
Calling, with the intention of folding the turn unimproved is simply too weak against a typical 10-20 6 max player.

He may have a hand or he may not. He could have a '7' or a '4' or a PP. Or he may just have ace high or a straight draw or simply nothing. We don't know yet. So re-raise and see how he reacts.

If he caps or does a stop n go then we know he is serious and can take the appropriate action.
If he calls and checks then fire another barrel on the turn to see if that gets rid of him. This should at least be too much heat for ace high and he may even fold a 7 or a small PP if an ace comes on the turn. If he does call the turn there is probably no point betting again if we don't improve on the river.

I was going to deal with Hand 1 as well but I have a couple of sit n' go tournaments going which are getting interesting.

Someone else can explain the logic of that one.

Gazza

[balkii]

hand 1 i dont like. its a good play if you are playing against me, because often if i get checkraised as the PFR on that board, i assume its a bluff, and will wait to raise the turn with a big ace. but against an unknown i think you are beat too often and many will call you down with A-high here.

hand 2 is almost routine. the only reason why is just 'almost' is because you have K-high instead of A-high. but i expect you to be good frequently here.

[imported_stealthcow]

in hand 1, i can't imagine any possible hand that he raises you on teh turn that you are ahead of.

hand 2 is okay, because its less likely that he has something, and with your image, you make it too expensive for them

stealthcow-

[BottlesOf]

I'm gonna go against the masses and say Hand 1 is more likely to work. In hand 1, I think you may be able to knock a player of a pair higher than yours up to a point. If he has Ace high (I find this less likely) he'll also fold here.

In hand 2, MP is check raising for value. Or perhaps he checked, and only decided to raise once it was HU and treid to make a move on you... If he has a 7, he's going into call down mode, and a 4 you'll hear from again.

Enh, I dunno. I think I have a lot to learn...

[balkii]

in hand 1, i can't imagine any possible hand that he raises you on teh turn that you are ahead of.

i agree. thats why i said i didnt like it.

[MAxx]

i think number 2 will work more often than number 1. that said, i wouldnt be surprised if you said number one worked and number 2 did not.

[Joe826]

numba 1. hand 2 is a completely standard play for overcards, while hand 1 is much more likely to make a decent player fold a better hand or a hand w/ outs.

[jfresh]

i say hand 1 is more likely to work. button obviously doesn't believe you have a T. he's still thinking over cards, possibly AK, is still good.

in hand 2, you aren't going to convince anyone you have anything with a 744 rainbow flop. yes, mp1 probably has nothing either, but, unless the turn/river comes K,Q/J, MP is calling down with AT, A9 i'm sure.

[DrGutshot]

schneids, are you check calling the river in hand 1 if he calls the 3bet?

or are you betting any non-paint?

-DrG

[Schneids]

Hand 1 -- he 4-bet, I fold.

Hand 2 -- he called the flop 3-bet then folded to my turn bet.


Thanks everyone for the responses, I know there may have been a few I need to respond to and I'll get to them soon I hope, though at the moment I'm a little overbooked so that'll have to wait.

[James282]

Without the time to read all the responses, hand 1 is a million times better than hand 2. If hand 2 worked, you were playing with 4 year olds.
-James

[James282]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1 -- he 4-bet, I fold.

Hand 2 -- he called the flop 3-bet then folded to my turn bet.


Thanks everyone for the responses, I know there may have been a few I need to respond to and I'll get to them soon I hope, though at the moment I'm a little overbooked so that'll have to wait.

[/ QUOTE ]

bah, i should've checked for a results thread first /images/graemlins/smile.gif
-James