Some Interesting Theory from Jennifer Harmon in SS2....

[mtdoak]

Mostly, the limit section is for mid to high limit poker. However, some interesting stuff. One example I found.....

You raise in late position with A /images/graemlins/club.gif 7 /images/graemlins/club.gif, and the BB calls.

The flop comes:

K /images/graemlins/club.gif 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

BB checks, you bet, BB raises. You call.

Turn comes 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

BB Bets, you should raise.

Reasoning: You were going to call anyways, why not raise? You can muck to a 3 bet, and you can check it down on the river if you don't improve. You may be able to move an opponent off of a hand like 10-10 or 8-8, as your play in consistent with a big hand.

Think this theory applies to low limit? It obviously depends on the player, but overall, are low limit players not aware enough for a move like this to work?

[FishNChips]

I don't get this at all?

we have middle pair, no draw, its a small pot and we're just heads up - our opponent called a PF raise and c/r on the flop...
a - why did we even see the turn?
b - ok... so we called the flop c/r because of the backdoor flush draw... why would we call the turn bet?
c - if we're calling the turn bet then I guess raising makes sense - our cards aren't good so we want to make the villain lay this down.

Someone who's better than I am will need to explain this one to me.

Thanks,
FishNChips
/images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[Lmn55d]

I've used this line a lot in the past, but IMO it isn't nearly as effective at lower limits for a couple reasons. As you point out here, its useful for a couple reasons. One, you're opponent could be on a draw and raising here will allow you to charge him for drawing. Secondly, it could make a better hand fold. It costs the same as calling down so these are nice advantages. In low limit games, however, some bad things often happen. First, a lot of the crazy aggressive players in today's games will 3bet the turn with their draw or weak pair, making you fold a better hand. This is obviously no good. Secondly, usually in lower limits your folding equity isn't as high. In other words, there are a lot of opponents who will not lay their hands down ever, even if it is a pair of 2s. I think these 2 things make the line a lot less useful in aggressive games where people don't fold much. Against the right opponents, however, it can be very powerful.

[7ontheline]

Yeah, this only works when there is folding equity and thinking opponents. Against a tricky player, maybe he c/r'd his heart draw. Maybe he has a 7 also. Maybe he has a PP better than 7s but worse than Ks. Low-limit players are not going to fold.

[eric5148]

[ QUOTE ]
Think this theory applies to low limit?

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely not.

[Michael Davis]

This advice is absolutely correct if your opponent is such that there is a decent possibility that your hand is best, and that your opponent will check the river if he indeed has a K.

This will describe many legitimate opponents, who will checkraise this flop with any pair and sometimes anything against an openraiser from the cutoff.

But it just doesn't apply to most low limit games, where the opponents are so passive that the flop checkraise means a K an overwhelming amount of the time. There are a lot of times where this hand should be dumped. If you're not dumping, raising to get a free showdown is a good player against an opponent whom you have good control over.

One important thing to note is that its better to raise here with A7 than with Q7, because with Q7 you are more likely to get two bets on the river if you hit your kicker.

-Michael

[xxxxx]

This is your garden variety semi-bluff right? At small stakes, you can't bluff the calling stations and therefore you can't semibluff.

[Michael Davis]

This isn't a semibluff. There is no chance that your opponent will fold a better hand, with the possible and rare exception of 88.

-Michael

[Kaz The Original]

I've seen this misconception around a few places. Semi bluffing is not betting with an "ok" or "weak" hand it is betting with a draw.

[xxxxx]

This is your garden variety spewing chips on a hand you ought to fold.

[Michael Davis]

There are situations where betting with A7 and a pair of sevens could be a semibluff, but they are really rare and would require someone who could lay down a real hand based on prior actions in the hand. What you are saying is correct.

-Michael

[xxxxx]

You have a draw. You have five outs to two pair or a set. Do you really think there is an x% chance this hand is best?

[scrub]

[ QUOTE ]
This advice is absolutely correct if your opponent is such that there is a decent possibility that your hand is best, and that your opponent will check the river if he indeed has a K.

This will describe many legitimate opponents, who will checkraise this flop with any pair and sometimes anything against an openraiser from the cutoff.

But it just doesn't apply to most low limit games, where the opponents are so passive that the flop checkraise means a K an overwhelming amount of the time. There are a lot of times where this hand should be dumped. If you're not dumping, raising to get a free showdown is a good player against an opponent whom you have good control over.

One important thing to note is that its better to raise here with A7 than with Q7, because with Q7 you are more likely to get two bets on the river if you hit your kicker.

-Michael

[/ QUOTE ]

This should be the end of the thread.

scrub

[sin808]

Didn't read all the replies so forgive me if this has been covered.

This is pretty standard in the higher games isn't it? Raising the turn for a free showdown? I seriously doubt it has much merit in most SS games since they will call with TT or 88 anyway.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

michael got this right,

this play works when theres a decent chance you have the best hand and you have the ability (albiet slim) to fold a better hand. in party 15/30 games, this checkraise does not neccessarily mean a K. it could be any pocketpair or a heart draw or someone just plain old bluffing you. you might be able to fold QQ-88 or at least a hand that has outs against your 7 with a turn raise. then you can take a freeshown on the river or bet if you improve and it costs you the same amount of bets *if* you were intent on showing down in the first place.

[Fnord]

Also, a lot of weak players have caught on to these kinda of plays and many will lead the turn/river with any pretty good pair after being raised on the prior street. It's a pretty reliable read...

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
You raise in late position with A /images/graemlins/club.gif 7 /images/graemlins/club.gif, and the BB calls.

The flop comes:

K /images/graemlins/club.gif 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

BB checks, you bet, BB raises. You call.

Turn comes 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

BB Bets, you should raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

My line against most 2/4 opponents goes like this:

I raise preflop, BB calls.

On the flop, BB checks, I bet, BB checkraises. Sick of folding these spots, but fully putting my opponent on at least king-rag while noting that I have a backdoor flush draw to go with my pair, I call.

On the turn, BB bets, I fold.

If, on the other hand, I think BB is a maniac or just a LAG -- and I've been running into a lot of those lately -- there's a good chance I'm at least calling down. But if I'm raising the turn, it's for value.

And occasionally I will find out that I was up against a flush draw that -- lately, anyway -- will of course hit on the river. But it hardly ever seems to be 88 or TT. With those hands, my opponent would call me down (if he didn't 3-bet preflop), or, if he was feeling frisky and especially if a third heart fell on the river, he would bet into me or checkraise with it then.

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
You can muck to a 3 bet

[/ QUOTE ]
Like that solves your problems.

Getting 3-bet by a hand that you have 3-5 outs against is very expensive. You've paid full price for the river card and showdown but you aren't getting them.

Suppose Villain has KJ and you fold when he 3-bets. The EV cost of your raise versus just calling down is 5/44 * 8 BB = 0.91 BB.

There is also the major issue of the stop-n-go. Are you definitely beaten if he calls the raise and bets a blank on the river? I doubt it. If you decide that the stop-n-go means you have a 20% chance to be good, you must call the river and your turn raise just cost you another 0.6 BB. If you only have a 5% chance to be good you should fold but your turn raise has lost 5% * 8 BB = 0.4 BB.

The turn raise is extremely risky unless you have superb control over your opponent.

[StellarWind]

I don't recognize this author/source. What is SS2?

[captZEEbo1]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't recognize this author/source. What is SS2?

[/ QUOTE ]

doyle brunson's Super System II.

[feelixthegreek]

Might it be cheaper to 3 bet the flop and bet out the turn if checked to (or see the river for free)? Now you can fold to a turn check raise if he bets out on the turn and save a small bet.

Just another way of looking at it.