You are waiting a hand to play and...

[snowmen]

You are in a NL game waiting for a playable hand and it comes. AJ s/o , AQ s/o , raise preflop , one caller , miss copletely the flop and your opponent fires and you have 2 options : fold and then get frustated (a lot of time waiting for a hand to fold it) or lose a lot of money wihout nothing.Getting bored or playing looser what do you think? Thanks

[Kaz The Original]

I would generally choose lose a lot of money with nothing. That's my personal favourite.

BTW, you don't have to raise these hands preflop.

[tap tap tappy]

This situation is always a commonality with me. I am curious to hear what the more successful players do in this situations. As I can see most of my play is way too tight and too often like Kaz had said do we raise with AJ or AQo when in reality we are really over betting it. Think about it, you raise with AJo or AQo, we are raising and we don't even have hands yet. I do realize that of course we are raising to get value for when we hit the flop and etc, etc but it's kinda funny to think about. If we had TT-AA we may raise because we have a hand, we have a moderate to premium pair depending on the value but when we raise with like AJo or AQo we don't have anything but ace high and were already betting. Kinda funny I guess.

[snowmen]

Yes i know what you say. But for example you call in MP with AQo and there is a flop like Axx with 3 more players on the hand(BB,UTG+1,Button).You are out of position to play this hand accurately. I have lost a lot of pots with this kind of hands , strong but not strong enough , when i see a player betting high i fold and suppose two pair or a set. So my hand ratio would be reduced to pocket pair looking for a set?? i don't think so , i think there would be a more accurate game i have already to learn (very noob in NL still). Thanks

[tap tap tappy]

I definitely hear ya man. Makes the game more like a waiting game than poker right?

[johnsy]

short term luck is very strange........if i am running bad i will limp with qq and if im running good ill rerasise with 57o.......pateince is very important, as well as knowing when to goto battle.....in response to your question, ill wait for a better situation. i can play poker for almost 3 days still and im 31. in three days the short term luck will do all kinds of crazy things. you might get kings twice in a row, followed by ak, and then qq(and then lose with all four hands lol)........but u might not see anything playable for hours and i mean HOURS....wait, wait, wait...the right situation will come along soon enough!!!!!!

[Toy4x4]

The thing about waiting is that people start to make you a tight player (whether thats true or not). It sets you up for a really low risk bluff at the blinds or something. Suppose you've been waiting around for a hand and nothing has shown up for an hour or so. The button comes around to you and everyone folds except a limper or two. You have a marginal hand or even nothing. Go ahead and take a stab at it. Because people have made you out as a tight player, they are going to put you on a monster, and most likely fold.

[JaBlue]

If you want help, post a specific hand that troubled you. You just can't ask "in general" poker questions. This just isn't one of those games.

[TheWorstPlayer]

Yes, hands would probably be better. But in general, the answer is: You play poker to make money - fold your hand and wait.

[Burno]

[ QUOTE ]
As I can see most of my play is way too tight and too often like Kaz had said do we raise with AJ or AQo when in reality we are really over betting it. Think about it, you raise with AJo or AQo, we are raising and we don't even have hands yet. I do realize that of course we are raising to get value for when we hit the flop and etc, etc but it's kinda funny to think about. If we had TT-AA we may raise because we have a hand, we have a moderate to premium pair depending on the value but when we raise with like AJo or AQo we don't have anything but ace high and were already betting. Kinda funny I guess.

[/ QUOTE ]

When I'm raising AJo and AQo, etc., I'm doing it for three reasons.

1. Value
2. Initiative
3. Cover for my real big hands

On the whole, number 2 is at least as important as 1, and in many many cases, much more important.

This is a much better approach than thinking that you are betting an unmade hand. Guess what. They don't know what your cards are, and they are a decent dog to hit the flop.

[Carmine]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As I can see most of my play is way too tight and too often like Kaz had said do we raise with AJ or AQo when in reality we are really over betting it. Think about it, you raise with AJo or AQo, we are raising and we don't even have hands yet. I do realize that of course we are raising to get value for when we hit the flop and etc, etc but it's kinda funny to think about. If we had TT-AA we may raise because we have a hand, we have a moderate to premium pair depending on the value but when we raise with like AJo or AQo we don't have anything but ace high and were already betting. Kinda funny I guess.

[/ QUOTE ]

When I'm raising AJo and AQo, etc., I'm doing it for three reasons.

1. Value
2. Initiative
3. Cover for my real big hands

On the whole, number 2 is at least as important as 1, and in many many cases, much more important.

This is a much better approach than thinking that you are betting an unmade hand. Guess what. They don't know what your cards are, and they are a decent dog to hit the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bruno....THANK YOU.

Wow this thread and most of the replies is really scary for me. First off let me say that I am a limit player and new to this section of the forum. I maybe shouldn't be replying to this thread but it just shocks me what I read here(NL forum)sometimes and I don't know if the difference between limit and nl is that vast and the fundamental pricipals are so differnt or just many of the posters here are beginners themselves.

First off, Poker is a waiting game. The best description I have heard so far is NL poker is hours of boredom with a few minutes of horror mixed in. In reality though that is not really an accurate description. All those hours you are waiting for that AJ or AQ. Those hours are poker. Studing your opponents so when your playble hand does come you know how to make money with it even when it does miss.

Now on to the raising comments. We raise our "better than average" hands because we win money with them not all the time but a "MAJORITY" of the time. The edges in poker are small and an expert player knows how and when to exploit those edges to maximise his/her profit. For an example look to the casinos. They do pretty well with a 1% house edge wouldn't you say, but they don't win every hand do they. They get their money in when the getting is good. And for a casino that is every hand. A poker player gets his money in when that 1% edge is in his favor.

I hope that some longtime posters on this forum will jump in here and either back me up or explain to me that my Limit Poker mentality doesn't apply to NL.

[TheWorstPlayer]

Of course your limit fundamentals apply to no limit. They are poker fundamentals. The only difference is in the execution. For example, in both limit and no limit it is a good idea to raise AQ in late position with a few limpers. You want to do this for the reasons Burno mentioned. Yes, you want to raise it. I repeat. You want to raise it. In limit, however, you can only raise it one small bet which doesn't really thin the field that much. That is a shame, so you have to account for that in your strategy. In no limit, however, you can just raise a bit bigger if there are a few limpers. So you would MORE want to raise it in limit since you can control HOW MUCH you raise it, which is a pretty powerful weapon.

In addition to Burno's reasons for raising it, I would like to point out one more. Hands like AQ and AJ usually make TPGK hands. Those hands are not going to win big pots. If someone is willing to play a big pot with you, then they can beat TPGK. So you want to play these hands against only a few people to reduce the chances of someone making a big pot hand against you. If you limp AQ and let 6 people see the flop, even if you hit Q-7-6 flop, there is a decent chance someone hit 76 or an OESD, etc. And if you play against only a few opponents, then even when you miss, there is a good chance that they did, too, and therefore you will STILL HAVE THE BEST HAND. This point should definitely be emphasised, because this thread seems to be ignoring it. When you raise preflop with AQ, there is a good chance that you have the best hand, especially raising in late position. Even if you miss the flop, there is still a good chance you have the best hand. So don't be afraid to bet it out against one or two opponents even when you miss.

Cheers!

[warlockjd]

[ QUOTE ]
Makes the game more like a waiting game than poker right?

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL!!

[zaxx19]

All those hours you are waiting for that AJ or AQ

Im not waiting for AQ or AJ bc those hands wont break any half way conscious player especially in an unraised pot.

Perhaps this is where the LEAP from LHE to NLHE really is screwing you up.

PS I usually limp in EP with AJ or AJs. Try it.

[Carmine]

[ QUOTE ]
All those hours you are waiting for that AJ or AQ

Im not waiting for AQ or AJ bc those hands wont break any half way conscious player especially in an unraised pot.

Perhaps this is where the LEAP from LHE to NLHE really is screwing you up.

PS I usually limp in EP with AJ or AJs. Try it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Zaxx first off I agree AJo is a marginal hand and can be dangerous in both LHE and NLHE. No need to discuss that in this thread. I was only making referance to it because of the original poster used it. I was more trying to get my point across how a poker player should be thinking about raising in general.

However you make a referance I would like to address (I should probably start a seperate post for this). You say your not waiting for AQ or AJ because those hands won't break anyone. So this brings up the question is the main purpose in NL to be thinking about how to take an opponents stack in one hand. Of course it is nice when the opportunity arises, but are you missing other opportunities to take the players money over several hands overemphasising trying to bust his stack in one shot. I mean I'm just as happy to take someone's $500 over ten hands as to one single hand. Don't hands like AQ, AJ allow me to do just that.

Reading back through the old threads I'm seeing how most people here put little importance on hands like AQ, AJ, AT and even hands like AK I've read about just limping in with. I realize the danger in NL that one hand can bust you as opposed to LHE were it can only cost you 12BB at most.

Let me ask you(and others) this. What hands/situations are you waiting for hours on end. AA/KK, 66 for the set, 7,8s for the straight/flush draw. I'm just curious what are considered to be the optimal situation to break someone.

[snowmen]

I want to remark i do not wait for AJ,AQ or similars, i wait for really premium hands but in the wait you get those hands(AJ,Aq,ect) and you want some action with them.

Other thing to take into account is : You were waiting for "The perfect hand" and cacth aces on last position, raises (not much , you have been too much in the table without playing anything, so you do not want to show too much force), get two callers (TT , AKs) and the guy with TT get a set while you are striking the rag flop. This is just frustrating.I do not really fear this scenario but i know it is very possible. Thanks

[amoeba]

I fold.

my opponents don't know I have been getting a cold run of cards. They are just playing the 2 in their own hands.

[TheWorstPlayer]

In general, the theory is that you don't want to win pots you want to win money. That is usually done by winning the big pots. Yes, the little pots add up. Yes, you should know how to play them well because they come up very very often. But it is definitely better to learn the discipline of not getting involved trying to take down every small pot that you have a piece of (say, middle pair). It is much better to learn the best lines to take someone's stack when you call their raise with suited connectors and flop a monster draw or whatever. That is where more money is made. If you raise AK and get two callers and the flop comes Axx and it is a big pot, you are losing, not winning. Remember that.

[poboy]

[ QUOTE ]
You are in a NL game waiting for a playable hand and it comes. AJ s/o , AQ s/o , raise preflop , one caller , miss copletely the flop and your opponent fires and you have 2 options : fold and then get frustated (a lot of time waiting for a hand to fold it) or lose a lot of money wihout nothing.Getting bored or playing looser what do you think? Thanks

[/ QUOTE ]

It is always much much better to lose your money, and it's not even close. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Carmine]

[ QUOTE ]
In general, the theory is that you don't want to win pots you want to win money. That is usually done by winning the big pots. Yes, the little pots add up. Yes, you should know how to play them well because they come up very very often. But it is definitely better to learn the discipline of not getting involved trying to take down every small pot that you have a piece of (say, middle pair). It is much better to learn the best lines to take someone's stack when you call their raise with suited connectors and flop a monster draw or whatever. That is where more money is made. If you raise AK and get two callers and the flop comes Axx and it is a big pot, you are losing, not winning. Remember that.

[/ QUOTE ]

TWP, I understand what you are saying and agree with it. Except for the last sentence. That statement I'm not quite sure if I understand what you are trying to say. In LHE I raise with AK the flop comes Axx and I make money because the loose/poor players call me down with any Ace not giving any consideration to their kicker. Is this not the case in NL? Perhaps you are trying to say if I raised and the pot becomes big on a Axx board I'm beat because they either have two pair, set or better. I will only win small pots with AK because there will be no AK vs. AQ/AJ/AT/Ax standoffs in big pots? AQ will/must fold to any decent sized raise in NL?

[Carmine]

[ QUOTE ]
In general, the theory is that you don't want to win pots you want to win money. That is usually done by winning the big pots. Yes, the little pots add up. Yes, you should know how to play them well because they come up very very often. But it is definitely better to learn the discipline of not getting involved trying to take down every small pot that you have a piece of (say, middle pair). It is much better to learn the best lines to take someone's stack when you call their raise with suited connectors and flop a monster draw or whatever. That is where more money is made. If you raise AK and get two callers and the flop comes Axx and it is a big pot, you are losing, not winning. Remember that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Another question about this statement. Are you saying you would prefer to call a EP PF raise(lets give EP AK) with lets say 7,8s. The flop comes A9Tr. He bets 10BB. You Call?? Turn is blank. He bets 20BB. You Call?? I don't think that is what you are saying. The mathamatics would kill you. Unless you flop the made draw hand would it not be to easy for any TP to give you losing odds to continue on. As you can tell I have much to grasp about NL.

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
In LHE I raise with AK the flop comes Axx and I make money because the loose/poor players call me down with any Ace not giving any consideration to their kicker. Is this not the case in NL? Perhaps you are trying to say if I raised and the pot becomes big on a Axx board I'm beat because they either have two pair, set or better. I will only win small pots with AK because there will be no AK vs. AQ/AJ/AT/Ax standoffs in big pots? AQ will/must fold to any decent sized raise in NL?

[/ QUOTE ]
This is a big difference between limit and no limit. In limit, someone can call you down with AQ and you have AK because you could have a worse hand than AK (say, AJ) and be willing to make bets. And if you bet every street and one or two guys call every street, that is a big pot in limit. Not so in no limit. Even if you bet the pot on the flop and bet the pot on the turn and get called, that still won't make a huge pot in no limit. A huge pot is created by raises and re-raises. If there are raises or re-raises and all you have is TPTK then most likely your opponent is beating your hand.

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
Another question about this statement. Are you saying you would prefer to call a EP PF raise(lets give EP AK) with lets say 7,8s. The flop comes A9Tr. He bets 10BB. You Call?? Turn is blank. He bets 20BB. You Call?? I don't think that is what you are saying. The mathamatics would kill you. Unless you flop the made draw hand would it not be to easy for any TP to give you losing odds to continue on. As you can tell I have much to grasp about NL.

[/ QUOTE ]
The thing to think about is implied odds. If you flop a draw, you can still call a pot-sized bet if stacks are deep enough. This works because although the pot is laying you 2:1 odds, you might really have 10:1 odds assuming the player won't release his TPTK type hand if you hit your draw on the turn. But if you blank on the turn, you will probably have to fold to his turn bet, true. But if you are playing against such an aggressive opponent, then if you flop a set or two pair, you will certainly make a lot, right? Just call the flop and raise the turn.

[excession]

Well the question is 'what's the PFA for the player who fires?'

If it's 3+ he will bet out heads-up from EP with anything so you either shouldn't raise that kind of player pre-flop without a big pair or you should be prepared to pop him back with a re-raise whenever he bets even if you have missed (as 2/3 of the time he has too and will fold if you rep a hand).

If he is PFA 1 or less the you can be pretty sure he only bets when he has hit and so you should lay it down.

If you have no read or his PFA is 1-3 I'd lay it down i guess - no point in getting involved.