ruling question

[pryor15]

odd situation arose in my weekly home game that there was considerable disagreement on and i was wondering if anyone had any insight into what the correct ruling would be.

playing HE, 4-handed and the SB is busy stacking his chips from the previous pot when the cards are dealt, and therefore doesn't see the cards that are dealt to him. UTG folds instantly, tossing his cards into the middle of the table, where they land closer to the SB than the ones he was originally dealt. On the button, I raise w/ 66 and the SB picks up the previously discarded hand, proceeds to call w/ QXo and win the hand when a Q comes on the flop. He's starting to stack his new pot when UTG realizes the SB accidentally played the wrong hand. I argue that the moment he touched mucked cards, his hand was dead, therefore the pot is mine (and the pot is a considerable one at this point, as i semi-bluffed on both the flop and the turn), but the SB claims it's not his fault the muck was closer to him than his own hand, and even if it was, he shouldn't be penalized chips he bet in the process of playing the wrong hand. in the interest of civility, we split the pot, but i'm wondering what the correct ruling would be (i suspect i was right, for the most part). thanks

[CaptLego]

It would seem to me that you can't have it both ways...
If his hand is dead as soon as he touched the muck, then he can't bet on a dead hand. You should get the blinds.

If he's allowed to play the hand, then he's entitled to the pot if he wins.

I suspect that Robert's Rules covers this kind of thing... isn't there some statue of limitations on identifying irregularities? Once the (incorrect) cards have been acted on, and that action is followed by another player's action... I think the action stands.

[fishfeet]

I dont have an official ruling.. but I beleive it should be handled 1 of 2 ways (assuming this is a friendly game)

1: The hand he played becomes live. He wasnt at fault the cards werent dealt properly (close to him)
He did play a random hand without any extra information and won.

2: All money is returned.
This option is based on the faith of the person who said the hand played was infact mucked by him.

Personally, in a friendly game, I give the pot to the SB player. I then ask all players to protect their hands as they are being dealt... and have dealers during each hand to make sure it happens.
If chips are in the way, ask them to be moved out of the way a bit so that cards can be dealt further away from the muck.

In no way do I feel you would deserve the pot.
Perhaps in a casino type setting, you would.. but then again, in that kind of setting, the dealer grabs cards as they are mucked... and if the SB cards are still out there, he plays them, or if the dealer mucks them because they were unprotected, then you get it.

[Fins]

LOL...
I don't think his hands dead for touching the muck... he should just be slapped. If the mucked hand touched his cards & his cards weren't protected than his hands dead end of story. As fars him not being penalized... he should be for not paying attention or protecting his hand.

I vote his real hand plays unless the mucked cards touched his. If his hand was shuffled up before it could be determined than his hand's dead period... back to not protecting your cards.

Splitting the pot is way wrong what right does he have for anything other than getting his bet(s) back?? The other issue is he wasn't last to act (his actions effect th BB) so I think he doesn't even get his bet(s) back even in a home game atmosphere unless BB agrees.

- Fins

[pryor15]

his hand was a better starting hand, but of course, would have lost. i wonder how he can get his bets back, really, b/c it's entirely likely he would have called at least one bet anyway, as he had overcards. the BB, btw, checked, and folded to my first bet, but might have played it differently heads-up

[Arsene Lupin III]

[ QUOTE ]
I argue that the moment he touched mucked cards, his hand was dead, therefore the pot is mine (and the pot is a considerable one at this point, as i semi-bluffed on both the flop and the turn)

[/ QUOTE ]

Hehe.. remind me not to invite you to my place. That's a pretty acute angle.

[pryor15]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I argue that the moment he touched mucked cards, his hand was dead, therefore the pot is mine (and the pot is a considerable one at this point, as i semi-bluffed on both the flop and the turn)

[/ QUOTE ]

Hehe.. remind me not to invite you to my place. That's a pretty acute angle.

[/ QUOTE ]

what else can you do when someone plays the wrong hand? I've got enough things to watch w/o making sure the muck doesn't get played... /images/graemlins/smirk.gif