the cult of the 10BB rule

[Big Limpin']

Did i miss the boat on this one? It seems every third post says something like "well, remember the 10BB rule".

As near as i can ascertain, if you are making a preflop bet, and you have less than 10BB, you're supposed to push.

(yes?)

-Where did this come from? Some book? 2+2 poster?

-Doesnt 10 seem like an awfully arbitrary number?

-WHy does everyone refer to this "rule" like its the gospel?

-Why would i never take into consideration my position, type of hand, other stacks, do i want heads up or multi calls, etc.

I'm not trying to be a jackass here, but i clearly missed the post that explains WHY the threshold is TEN. And yet, it is probably the most oft-quoted rule of thumb i see here.

[Big Limpin']

Oh, and yes, i understand the premise. If you are going to pot-commit yourself, you're best to get your money in as the aggressor and perhaps take the blinds.

[captZEEbo1]

I don't totally agree with the 10BB rule. A lot of times at low buyins, opponents don't care how much you raise, but will fold their hands once they miss the flop. So you can pf raise 4.5 bb's...hit or miss a flop and go allin for your last 4.5/5 bb's. This has more fold equity. Many people don't have a problem calling 33 allin preflop, but seeing a flop of AJ7, they'll have a harder time calling off a bunch more chips with 33, thereby getting some fold equity with your KQ, even though you committed yourself to going allin regardless of what the flop brought, your OPPONENT might not realize this...

[El Maximo]

Here a copy of one of the original posts. I have no idea who the original author was.

Since I constantly cite the 10xBB rule, I feel obligated to defend it.

Here is what it comes down to for me. Sit and Gos are often not epic confrontations between two premium hands in the later rounds when it all is decided. They are generally 60/40 or closer confrontations, which ultimately decide the outcome.

With 10x the BB or less, you have options I suppose. You could raise the min with steal hands, but I think this stinks. For one, you are inviting people to come over the top with many hands (if you frequently steal this way). If you are the type to min raise with the goods as well, then you are also risking being busted by people who take advantage of the good price you have offered and see a flop from the blinds.

Min raising with big blinds and a 10xbb stack generally means you will steal blinds at a less frequent rate, but also risk less to do so. It also provides the chance for opponents to outplay you on the flop (which you will miss more than not). Frankly, I don't min raise because it always seems to put me in difficult situations. I know that difficult doesn't necessarily mean bad, but I prefer to avoid these kinds of spots.

So if you don't min raise, you are going to be raising 2.5-3xBB with 10Xbb stack. Now the problem arises here. You must raise 2.5-3xbb with all your hands, right? If you raise 2.5x-3bb when u are stealing, and do anything differently when u have the goods, then I think we could agree that this makes no sense. You must keep your opponents off balance.

If you raise 2.5-3bb with a stealing hand, and someone goes over the top for your stack, you are going to fold getting 13:7, or roughly 2:1 (usually 2+:1 because of the presence of blinds). Most stealing hands, on average, are worth this price.

The bottom line is this: If you steal enough using the 10xBB rule (you will have a higher rate of success than using any other method), then more often than not you will be doing enough work to keep your stack growing, or to at least keep it where it is. When you do get called, it won't always be by aces or kings, and it will often be an OK situation, one better than raising to 3xbb and then folding to a reraise.

The issue becomes a lot more clear with 8xBB. It should all be pushing and folding. I suppose 10xbb is kind of arbitrary, and I guess I would agree that maybe 9.5 is a better mark or so, but I really do not think raising less than all-in and folding is going to be a more +EV move than raising all-in to begin with. That is what it comes down to for me.

The 10xBB rule is a little bit of a simplification. I really believe that 9xBB works for me better, but 10x is fine too. The idea is that you can only move all in or fold when you are this shortstacked or if all the people to act after you have less than 9 or 10x BB.

Anyways, so we have this 'rule'. The real trick is deciding what to push, and what to not push. When you have 11xBB, you can afford to fold marginal hands like K8s from the CO, but if you had 6xBB, this fold would be a crime. So obviously as you lose your stack relative to the blinds, you get more desperate.

This is all simple stuff so far. The thing I wanted to say was that I think that most people think that this is a linear regression. So that at 11-14xBB you can afford to fold marginal hands (instead of opening for 3xBB), and at 8-10xBB you get more desperate, and at 6-8xBB you get even more desperate, etc.

I think that at 5-6xBB you should be the most desperate. What exactly this range of hands is, depends. But for the most part, this should be the height of your looseness. Why? Because you have folding equity, but not for long. When the blinds go up, or when you get blinded, or when both happen, you are sure to lose almost all of your folding equity, and you have no chance to survive and build a stack without showdown. If you have less than this, say, 1.5-3xBB, your folding equity is almost gone. You shouldn't be desperate now because you wont be able to make anyone fold with trash hands. So now you should be fairly selective, and worse case scenario just go down with any random two from the BB.

[curtains]

The 10x rule is just a general guideline for beginners to keep things not too complicated, in which case it serves it's purpose well. When you become more advanced, you can recognize the exceptions or create your own ways of dealing with such situations.

[Laughingboy]

This a fine basic discussion, but you don't address the most interesting question. I've asked this one myself, and never gotten a satisfactory answer:

[ QUOTE ]

So you can pf raise 4.5 bb's...hit or miss a flop and go allin for your last 4.5/5 bb's. This has more fold equity. Many people don't have a problem calling 33 allin preflop, but seeing a flop of AJ7, they'll have a harder time calling off a bunch more chips with 33, thereby getting some fold equity with your KQ, even though you committed yourself to going allin regardless of what the flop brought, your OPPONENT might not realize this...

[/ QUOTE ]

What's wrong with this? I think the added folding equity you get on the flop far outweighs any FE lost by betting 3.5 or 4.5 BB instead of the <10 you have left, especially when the blinds are big and you're going against another short stack. If you commit yourself to call any reraise and auto-push on the flop, how is this not a good play?

[lorinda]

One reason is that people see it as weak and try to reraise you with their A8 in the misguided opinion that you will fold.
This isn't that bad, unless you are holding A7 and they would have folded if they didn't think they could steal it.

Lori

[Jason Strasser]

I wrote this.

[1C5]

[ QUOTE ]
I wrote this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good article, I agree with it. One question: In the lower levels ($11-33) what % of the players know about and use a rule such as this (which I guess is related to the gap theory)?

It just seems that without knowing about this board, the aveage low level player would simply wait and wait until a good (not just decent) hand came to play and often get blinded out and just attribute that to bad luck and keep repeating that cycle of often getting blinded out. Would you agree?

[captZEEbo1]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't totally agree with the 10BB rule. A lot of times at low buyins, opponents don't care how much you raise, but will fold their hands once they miss the flop. So you can pf raise 4.5 bb's...hit or miss a flop and go allin for your last 4.5/5 bb's. This has more fold equity. Many people don't have a problem calling 33 allin preflop, but seeing a flop of AJ7, they'll have a harder time calling off a bunch more chips with 33, thereby getting some fold equity with your KQ, even though you committed yourself to going allin regardless of what the flop brought, your OPPONENT might not realize this...

[/ QUOTE ]

the other thing with this strategy, anyone SMART enough to seriously know about fold equity, knows you've already committed too much of your stack to fold.

The other thing with this is, when you DO go allin preflop, it looks like a bluff that DOESN'T want a call to most players. Not going allin appears to be a raise for value. People just get confused. They have a hard time pushing over the top allin with 33, and they have a hard time calling, b/c they don't want to see a flop and make a decision. Their DREAM is to get KJ or 33 to go allin preflop, where they don't have to make a flop decision.

[El Maximo]

Good Article Jason. I keep a file of great posts. Have enough to fill a book by now.

[El Maximo]

The reasons I like the 10bb rule is that its simple, effective, and difficult to defend against. They can't get a read on you. Sometimes I push into a monster and sometimes they call me with a weak hand when I hold a monster. The majority of times they fold. I like the simplicity of it while multi-tabling. My decisions are simple to make. It also places tremendous pressure on my opponent. Which is what I want. I agree that there are times when a mini-raise or limp is a higher EV play. I think discussions on this board are helping me to realize these situations. What I dont like about raising 1/2 my stack and pushing 1/2 my stack on the flop is what do I do when I raise 72o and get re-raised. Do I fold? Do I call a re-raise with this hand on the bubble? Do I only use the 1/2 raise 1/2 push strategy with certain hands? If I only use this strategy with certain hands will I become easy to read? If it works for you than go ahead and use it. Ive had great results so far being a devoted follower of the cult of 10bb.

[faquewdikhed]

First post here guys, glad to be a part of the forum. I could be off here, let me know;

Doesn't opponent pot odds come into play here? If you raise 5 BB and villain calls, there are 13BB in the pot, assuming nobody else limped and folded. If you then raise all in on the flop, that puts 18BB in the pot, and your opponent only has to risk 5BB to call, giving him/her 3.6:1 pot odds. You have no fold equity.

faquewdikhed

[Che]

Nice first post, faquewdikhed.

[ QUOTE ]
If you then raise all in on the flop, that puts 18BB in the pot, and your opponent only has to risk 5BB to call, giving him/her 3.6:1 pot odds. You have no fold equity.


[/ QUOTE ]

You are correct. Jason's explanation was excellent, but one part it did not discuss in detail was flop play when called.

When I have read SossMan's explanations in the multitable forum, he almost always mentions that when you make a "normal" open from a <10BB stack, you will not have enough firepower left to fold any hand that is anywhere close to the flop. So, other than getting a small pair to fold when 3 overs come, you won't be getting many postflop folds that you would not have gotten preflop, and many hands that would have folded PF will now call because they have proper odds to catch their flush, overcards + gutshot, or even just overcards.

Add in that your most likely callers are in the blinds when you are stealing and that they act first postflop, you will soon discover that the postflop folding equity most often works against you rather than for you (especially if your opponents are 2+2er's who understand the stop-n-go concept /images/graemlins/wink.gif). Getting all-in PF keeps the folding equity working for you.

Later,
Che

[Che]

El Maximo-

[ QUOTE ]
What I dont like about raising 1/2 my stack and pushing 1/2 my stack on the flop is what do I do when I raise 72o and get re-raised. Do I fold? Do I call a re-raise with this hand on the bubble?

[/ QUOTE ]

If your stack is big enough to actually have folding equity when you only bet half of it, why in the world are you doing anything but mucking 72o? I know we play situations and/or cards, but pot-commiting yourself with 72o, especially on the bubble, just doesn't make sense.

[ QUOTE ]
If I only use this strategy with certain hands will I become easy to read?

[/ QUOTE ]

I am very easy to read when I have less than X BB's (7 < X < 12 depending on the situation): my opponents know that I have a hand that I am willing to play for all my chips. If you overuse the bet part then bet the rest strategy, people can figure it out (possibly), but if you only use it one hand in 10 that you play, it's very unlikely that they'll get a good read.

Later,
Che

[se2schul]

[ QUOTE ]
-Why would i never take into consideration my position, type of hand, other stacks, do i want heads up or multi calls, etc.


[/ QUOTE ]

You do take all these things into consideration.
With 9BB, if dealt rags, you likely don't want to push, as you can wait for a good steal.
With 9BB if you get KT on the bubble, you may not want to push with this great steal hand if there is a very short stack.
If you have 2.5BB, you don't wait for a good steal hand, as you should be ready to push with any 2.

So, you can't just follow it blindly, but it is a great guideline.

Steve

[Laughingboy]

[ QUOTE ]
If you then raise all in on the flop, that puts 18BB in the pot, and your opponent only has to risk 5BB to call, giving him/her 3.6:1 pot odds. You have no fold equity.


[/ QUOTE ]
All true, but this assumes that your opponent is aware of this. Not always true, especially at the buyins I play at.

Also, you're ignoring the fact that this is a tourney, and your last X chips are more valuable. While the opponent may well be getting the proper odds if this were a side game, in a tourney, busting out is busting out.

I also dispute the notion that a lot of hands that would fold to your allin will call a standard raise. I just don't think this is true when the blinds are large. I normally use this move against another short stack, not a big stack, and as someone else said, a normal raise often looks stronger that a push, which just looks like a steal.

Finally, I use this move most often from the small blind, which means *I* get to go first on the flop.

None of us are advocating doing this all the time, but it is a good move when the conditions are right.

[Jason Strasser]

1C5,

I have no idea how many players use this 'rule'. Many may use it unintentionally. I havent really played the lower levels enough recently to get a feel for it.

I guess I agree with your second statement about people getting blinded away over and over because they never pick up good hands. That is a type of really easy opponent to beat. The ones that gave me more trouble in the 11-33 were the ones who made the real loose calls. In fact, in the 200s where I play the only real notes that I take are calling tendencies. If I move all in from the CO with 9xBB and the BB calls with K8o, well that is something I really need to know about.

-Jason

[Laughingboy]

[ QUOTE ]
I wrote this.

[/ QUOTE ]
Is there an attachment or link to an article somewhere in there that I missed?

[Jason Strasser]

Elmaximo just dug up an old post of mine. It's copied earlier in this thread.

[Laughingboy]

[ QUOTE ]
Elmaximo just dug up an old post of mine. It's copied earlier in this thread.

[/ QUOTE ]
Ahhh, ok. To be clear, I agree with all of your arguments, and I follow the rule by default. But I'm sure you'd agree that there are times when it's right to deviate from the rule.

Whether my particular example is one of those, I don't know, I'm just a lowly $33 player, but it seems to work well there /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Jason Strasser]

I deviate it more and more when I see very poor players in my game. If there is a very dumb stack in the blinds, and I am on the button in a stealing spot, I will often bet something like 1/2 my stack or even more, with the obvious intention of never folding regardless of what flops, and the plan to shove any flop checked to me. Sometimes you can get some additional fold equity.

But vs. a decent player, you are much better off just shoving in the first place.

-jason

[Phil Van Sexton]

This really was an amazing post. As with any good advice, the problems occurs when people take it too literally or don't read it carefully.

My problem is that I started NL with the Brunson advice in my head: the key to NL holdem is to make your opponent make a decision for all his chips, but without committing all of your own chips.

The example in Super/System has Doyle raising to 7,000 pre-flop when he and his opponent both have $20,000. He is making his opponent decide if he wants to play for his whole stack, whereas Doyle can fold if he chooses.

This is why the 10BB has bothered me a little bit since it doesn't look to exploit these opportunities. I believe they come up more often in tournaments than ring games, since you can rebuy in a ring game.

I guess I have more of a 8BB guideline myself, but I'm always looking for edges (sometimes too much to be sure).

[Cheeseweasel]

I believe that the primary source is not a post on 2+2, but an unpublished paper written on blind stealing.

The conclusion of the author was that "...a random pre-flop hand raising 10BB to steal the BB from the SB, will always generate positive long term equity.". However, later the author cautions, "...the average EV of random hands will be profitable over the long term, but any particular hand may not necessarily be profitable.".

The best rule of thumb is to never put your thumb in a meat grinder.

Best of Luck