Right Amount to Bet?

[KenProspero]

First hand of a Tournament, Hero is UTG -- dealt 3-3

First Question, is this a limp, fold or bet? No read on players, but game is in general pretty loose.

Hero Limps, 6 follow.

Flop is Q /images/graemlins/heart.gifT /images/graemlins/heart.gif3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

Blinds Check. Hero to bet.

Options seem to be check/fold (which has to be weak), matching the pot, doubling the pot or pushing. Idea being to knock out the flush draws -- being willing to die if someone has made a flush.

What's the right line?

[willie24]

the preflop limp is fine.

flop- a push is fine, a pot sized bet is OK. anything in between is fine. you will not fold to a reraise allin. anything less than a pot bet is wrong. i kind of like a big overbet like 2x pot.

you have outs against a flush. if you bet the pot, get called in multiple spots and the 4th heart comes on the turn, you obviously have to calculate your pot odds (needing board to pair on river) to figure out how high of a bet you should call.

ideally you want to have the betting end on the flop. getting allin against a player(s) would be great.

(the reason you might bet 2x the pot rather than push is so you can get the A /images/graemlins/heart.gif or 2 pair or something to push over the top of you. you have to assume you are ahead.)

[assron]

tricky hand to play from UTG, but you knew that.

if the table's that loose, someone's bound to take a stab at this flop, so I'd check-call this flop and checkraise the turn if no more hearts come. On a tight table, I'd lead out and bet the pot to get it heads up and make my reads from there.

[assron]

I'd take willie's line on a 22 or 33 table. I'd check-call then checkraise any table lower, and I'd underbet to re-raise on a higher limit table where the players can read right through that overbet and fold. There correct line is the line that lets you use other players' aggression against them, and this is different from one game to another.

[KenProspero]

Thanks you two.

As it turns out, I pushed, and two followed.

Rightly or wrongly, my thoughts for pushing were with 7 total in the pot, it's looking very loose. I'm concerned that with a pot sized bet, a couple may follow with lesser hands giving someone with a flush draw the right pot odds to follow. With fewer betters, betting pot or 2x pot seems more appropriate. However, as I'm raising the question, I'm not highly confident that I've gotten this right.

Assron (or anyone)-- let's say I check call on the flop. The most likely (though we're never sure) betting sequence would have been, checking till MP2, who probably would have put in a significant bet. Everyone folds between there and Button. Button would have likely called. (I'm saying this because I know what their cards actually were -- I'll give results later, though I'm more concerned with process than how any specific hand comes out for me).

I think I still have to call any bet, agree?

(edited to give explanation of push vs pot bet)

[assron]

call any bet? hmmmm... I'd call a bet and a big raise, I'd call a small bet and a call. I would be worried about a big bet and a call. Again, all of this depends on the table -- whether calling or raising is the norm for big flop hits.

I dont know about pushing this flop, as all that's going to call you down is the flush, and a limper's pot in level 1 is way too small to take this risk for me.

[Scuba Chuck]

ken, you were lucky and gained a significant edge when your 3 flopped on the board. Then your edge evaporated when you noticed all the hearts.

What SUCKS (and is thus great) about these low limit games is that any idiot will stick around with A /images/graemlins/heart.gif or K /images/graemlins/heart.gif with any size bet IMO. Assuming they haven't flopped the flush already.

Keep in mind, your edge is gone. Do you want to play without an edge, or even a tiny one?

[KenProspero]

Chuck, I'm not sure that I think the three hearts negates my edge (though it wasn't happy time,for sure).

If someone calls with A /images/graemlins/heart.gif or K /images/graemlins/heart.gif (or any other /images/graemlins/heart.gif for that matter) I'm still a 2-1 favorite in the hand, right. Do you think the possibiity that someone already has two hearts is enough to offset this advantage?