An early preflop decision

[SossMan]

I don't usually have too much trouble with preflop play, but this one had me a little bit on the fence.

No reads as we are in the first orbit.

I on the button with A /images/graemlins/spade.gifK /images/graemlins/spade.gif.

EP raises to 3x. I'm about to call, then the guy to my right reraises to 9x.

I have t2500 and the others have around t1000. Blinds are 25/25. (I took the rebuy right away, they did not...to my knowledge none of us had played a hand yet)

The only other t2500 stack is in the BB, but he's a known tight player.

what to do...

[fnord_too]

Only 1 rebuy allowed?

Without reads, I am inclined to push here. I think pushing is +EV, and the down side is not that bad. Maybe raising to 1k (or whatever the stack size of the biggest stack already in is) saves you from when the BB wakes up with a monster, but I think I just push and be done with it.

[Lloyd]

Lucky Chances? Generally speaking, my experience has been that there are enough clueless and loosey goosey players in that tournament that you could be up against a wide range of hands. And these types of players will normally call an early all-in bet. It's almost like they think there are unlimited rebuys sometimes. And to make matters even more confusing, there are lots of players there who will cold call that re-raise with crazy hands.

So I definitely would want to play the hand, the only question is whether to call, raise, or push. Obviously, you'd want to raise or even push to drive out other hands and possibly when the pot pre-flop. But I don't think that's going to happen. I think you'll still get called by both of the previous raisers, and you might even get called by others. Given the possibility that one of them has a pair, and one or more of your outs might be gone, I think I'd cold call the raise.

[SossMan]

Yeah, LCs.

for clarification, $100 buy in, one $100 rebuy (which I took right away)
fairly bad players and relatively loose in the rebuy period, but not anything approaching online $10 rebuy maniacs or something like that.

I thought that there could be a case for all four options (fold, cold call, raise non-allin, or push)
I thought that a non-all in reraise was the worst of these options, since they would be PCd anyway, and I'd just as soon they fold 66-TT.
I think it's relatively close between folding, cold calling, and pushing.
The reason for the fold would be that while probably not dominated, there is an EP raise and a reraise, so the chances of AA/KK are certainly there. I found out later that the EP raise was very likely loose since he subsequently raised 97s from EP and cold called w/ KJo. If I had that read, then I think that this would be an easy push, but I didn't, so oh well.

I though that the only hands that I wanted to call me that would probably call an all in was AKo and AQ. I think AJ lays down there, but maybe not. I may very well get a call out of 55/66.

I like the cold call the best in that spot since I have the button and am likely to get sufficient action from a weaker ace or king if I flop good.

I cold called and folded to an all in from the CO on an 8 high board.
EP called and had 88, CO had AQs and was drawing dead on the flop.

I wonder if I get a call out of 88 if I push? Maybe.

[Iconoclastic]

What buyin was this?

[esbesb]

Calling 225 off your stack of 2500 seems fine to me in late position with AKs. You'll be able to make some good judgments after the flop and will have plenty of chips relative to your competition if you need to get away from the hand.

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
Calling 225 off your stack of 2500 seems fine to me in late position with AKs. You'll be able to make some good judgments after the flop and will have plenty of chips relative to your competition if you need to get away from the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what I was thinking too. I don't think the cold-call is bad, and if EP pushes and MP calls, you at least have a chance to decide whether to lay it down at that point.

From the hands the EP guy played later, sounds like he would have called an all-in potentially.

Interesting hand, I'm playing a rebuy this weekend so I liked thinking about how I'd handle this, and I'd probably do the same thing you did.

[Jason Strasser]

This all depends on your read of the reraiser. If he is a wildish/crappy type player, I cant fold this preflop especially in a rebuy. But I do think this is a raise/fold type of situation. Calling a reraise with AKs is problematic for a number of reasons.

1) You're only continuing if you flop a pair, and if you toss out implied odds, you definitely dont have the odds to call this hand just to flop a pair.

2) Your implied odds are not usually so good because of the range of hands the reraiser has. Unless AQ is a reraise type hand (I have no idea the texture in this rebuy... In the 10rebuy on stars you have ths nuts with AK /images/graemlins/laugh.gif), I cant really see a good argument for calling the raise and reraise cold. If the player has AK AA-JJ or some range like that, you will obviously not continue past the flop most of the time without a pair, and if you do have a pair the opponent may just shut down because how good is KK-JJ with an ace on board? You just arent going to get paid off if you hit... If the player is reasonable.

3) You could be up against AA or KK, and if some topset vs tptk happens you obviously are going to get stacked off. Ask Shani about that in the 5-10 game last night on stars when he called my open with AK and flopped top two against my aces. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif. But seriously, if the flop is AJ5 and there is a ton of action, how good do you feel? You may be stuck in one of those 'the best that can happen is we split... or he has a set and I'm toast' spots.

Anyhow, another consideration is that if the reraiser is a very good player and knows you are a good player, he will get freaked out because of this cold call. I know if I had anything less than AA or KK and someone behind me, with position, cold called my reraise, I'd prolly wet myself.

Whether you raise or fold is completely up to you. In the stars rebuy this is an insta push, but you knew that.

-Jason

[swede123]

You mentioned that the competition is pretty weak, so definitely no sense flipping coins here. If you really feel you might be up against KK or AA here don't sweat it, fold and wait for a better spot. If you feel frisky I guess cold call and see what the flop brings. I don't think pushing is worth it in this spot, and I feel a reraise might bring a push from one of the other clowns.

Cheers,

Swede

[MLG]

I think in a tourney like this, or at least the way Soss has described it, it is quite possible you end up with a worse A. Also, by just calling it increses the chances that the original raiser will call the reraise with a weaker A if he has it.

[SossMan]

couple of things.

It's a rebuy, but only a single rebuy (which I have already used). My opponents have not rebought yet, hence the stack sizes.

I had no reads since this is like the 5th hand or something.

AQ and AJ are certainly in a typical EP raiser's range of hands in this tourney. Maybe even ATs. Certainly a lot more for the more maniacal/bad players.

If I flat call, there is little to no chance that the EP guy is going to go away if he has any ace. So there are my implied odds, I think.

I'm still not sure about this one, but I think it's close between all three options. I was confused, so I called.

[theghost]

I consider myself to be less sophisticated than most of you guys (as far as MTTs go), but I'm folding anything but a big pair against 2 unknown opponents who are both showing strength.

[Jason Strasser]

When I get confused, I go all in. Seriously.

-Jason

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
When I get confused, I go all in. Seriously.

-Jason

[/ QUOTE ]

Ha. That does take any further decision making out of the question!

I'm like Soss, when I can't decide what to do, I find myself calling to "see what happens next". Probably a bad policy.

[sdplayerb]

is this multi-rebuy? that makes a huge difference in the decision making.
well, i think i am calling either way. definitely if multi-rebuy.
if just one rebuy, i think it is close.

[Lloyd]

[ QUOTE ]

I wonder if I get a call out of 88 if I push? Maybe.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've played in that tourney maybe 10 times. My default early on is to assume that I'd get called with hands like that. Obviously, that can work for you and against you. If I had aces I'd be okay pushing expecting some LG to call me witha middle pair or Ax. But if I push w/AK I will probably be in a coinflip as a slight dog.

[Lloyd]

[ QUOTE ]
I consider myself to be less sophisticated than most of you guys (as far as MTTs go), but I'm folding anything but a big pair against 2 unknown opponents who are both showing strength.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's certainly nothing wrong with that approach. But you have to obviously take into consideration who you're playing against and the type of tourney. Here, Soss didn't have any reads since it was early. But there is 1 rebuy and that changes the way some people play.

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
is this multi-rebuy? that makes a huge difference in the decision making.
well, i think i am calling either way. definitely if multi-rebuy.
if just one rebuy, i think it is close.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
It's a rebuy, but only a single rebuy (which I have already used). My opponents have not rebought yet, hence the stack sizes.


[/ QUOTE ]

[Tyler Durden]

[ QUOTE ]

When I get confused, I go all in. Seriously.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is one of the first things I'd teach someone about NLHE tourneys. Seriously. It works well.

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

When I get confused, I go all in. Seriously.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is one of the first things I'd teach someone about NLHE tourneys. Seriously. It works well.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're speaking of pre-flop only, right?

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

When I get confused, I go all in. Seriously.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is one of the first things I'd teach someone about NLHE tourneys. Seriously. It works well.

[/ QUOTE ]

careful, many new players are confused by J8s facing a raise.