quiting my job for poker was a bad idea

[mj2]

7 months into playing poker full time, and i'm very frustrated. I feel like i've learned so much over the last several months, yet my best month playing full time was my first month. My statistics have gotten much better but my results have not. If your poker stats seem to be in the correct range, where do you then go if you're still struggling? Also, and more importantly, has anyone quit a good job to play poker and then gone back to working after about a year? If so, how did you explain that on your resume? I worked as an accountant and also as an investment analyst, and i'm guessing that most employers won't be impressed that instead of working for the last year, i've been playing online poker.

[whiskeytown]

lie - I dunno - say you were on sabbatical in Switzerland or something -

won't say I told you so - but maybe now you'll have a bit more respect when we say, keep the day job.

RB

[mackthefork]

Yeah sticking with the 9-5 is safest, whats done is done though, you can lie, its easy. I had a year I needed to get rid of on my CV from my late teens, all I do is use years for the dates of early stuff and then progress to years and months later on, it all looks neat with no gaps, and no awkward questions. Seeming as your gap is recent you need to come up with a different idea to that, but there are many ways, just make it something you won't have to talk to people about, lies have a way of getting out of hand and [censored] up your head. Good luck.

Regards Mack

[FMMonty]

When I had a 9 month gap in my CV, I jsut did the classic of saying I wanted to see the world, I traveled everywhere, South America, Africa, Asia etc... And tehn say you're glad you did it, and now that it's out of your system you can get back to work, employers love that stuff trust me!

[37offsuit]

You can say that you decided to start your own business but it failed, that you're ready to go back to work and that you have a new found respect and understanding for what it takes to run a business.

They aught to eat that brown stuff up like it's got the antidote in it.

[BarronVangorToth]

[ QUOTE ]
When I had a 9 month gap in my CV, I jsut did the classic of saying I wanted to see the world, I traveled everywhere, South America, Africa, Asia etc... And tehn say you're glad you did it, and now that it's out of your system you can get back to work, employers love that stuff trust me!

[/ QUOTE ]


Yes, employers love to be lied to.

Or not.

I would definitely suggest that IF it comes up (and it might not) that you instead just be vague about needing time off because if you start talking about countries you haven't been, you are bound to run into the one guy that's been to New Guinea twenty times and will start drilling you for information.

And then you are screwed.

Barron Vangor Toth
www.BarronVangorToth.com (http://www.BarronVangorToth.com)

[mackthefork]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, employers love to be lied to.

Or not.

I would definitely suggest that IF it comes up (and it might not) that you instead just be vague about needing time off because if you start talking about countries you haven't been, you are bound to run into the one guy that's been to New Guinea twenty times and will start drilling you for information.

And then you are screwed.

Barron Vangor Toth


[/ QUOTE ]

Well yes that was my point, make it something that won't continuously come up in conversation, as for employers not liking being lied to, work is a two way thing each party gets benefits from the arrangement, they don't tell you everything, no need to feel bad about keeping a little back for yourself.

Regards Mack

[parappa]

Professional Poker is a business. Just say that you started your own business with (insert clever business terms here) investments. As an accountant, you likely know the clever business terms, but my point is that you can be almost completely honest and just fiddle the terms around a little. If you say the business failed, they're not going to ask you much about what it was out of politeness.

[FMMonty]

yeah good point, ignore me, the advantage i had was that i did do a litttle bit of travelling and i'ev been to all the places i said, just told a little white lie for how long, two weeks turns into two months, another week is three weeks and so on

back up would helpful
I was hungover and not thinking straight when i wrote that post

[RollaJ]

Sorry to hear things are not going well. Since playing full time I have loved every minute of it (ok except the bad beats, and card dead spells etc....) But nearly every morning I wake up and think how fortunate I am that things are going well. As I posted when I first thought about this though, I am very down to Earth and very realistic, and I just pray that things keep going as well as they have. While I am not making a fortune so far, I am doing well, and exceeding my expectations that I had set for myself when I set out. I love the hours, the freedom, and the dress code /images/graemlins/tongue.gif .
I dont miss waking up at 5:30am, I dont miss the 3 hours of commuting a day, I dont miss the tie, I dont miss being fake (my biggest pet peeve of the corporate world). I dont miss the back stabbing coworkers, I dont miss the $7 sandwiches in Midtown, I dont miss "The Man". I dont miss having my emails read, and phone calls recorded. Id say the only thing I miss are 4 or 5 people I had become friends with, but hey thats what phones are for.

I just hope that things keep going well for me. I am planning on a 3 month post (or shall we say Q1 /images/graemlins/laugh.gif) as soon as the time arrives (next week).

[smudgex68]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont miss waking up at 5:30am, I dont miss the 3 hours of commuting a day, I dont miss the tie, I dont miss being fake (my biggest pet peeve of the corporate world). I dont miss the back stabbing coworkers, I dont miss the $7 sandwiches in Midtown, I dont miss "The Man". I dont miss having my emails read, and phone calls recorded.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was offered a job in the States once /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[Fat Nicky]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont miss waking up at 5:30am, I dont miss the 3 hours of commuting a day, I dont miss the tie, I dont miss being fake (my biggest pet peeve of the corporate world). I dont miss the back stabbing coworkers, I dont miss the $7 sandwiches in Midtown, I dont miss "The Man". I dont miss having my emails read, and phone calls recorded. Id say the only thing I miss are 4 or 5 people I had become friends with, but hey thats what phones are for.


[/ QUOTE ]

Coming from Brooklyn and working corporare myself, I envy you sir. What you don't miss sounds exactly like my life.

[ThePinkBunny]

may others have learned your lesson. That being said, I've gone three years without a job, but am also thinking about picking up something part time, cause I kinda miss it.

[rdu $teve]

[ QUOTE ]
may others have learned your lesson. That being said, I've gone three years without a job, but am also thinking about picking up something part time, cause I kinda miss it.

[/ QUOTE ]


SACRILIDGE!! /images/graemlins/mad.gif

Wanna switch places?

[Jezebel]

Tell them that you tried to start up a consulting business in accounting that didn't pan out.

[2ndGoat]

[ QUOTE ]
I love the hours, the freedom, and the dress code /images/graemlins/tongue.gif .
I dont miss waking up at 5:30am, I dont miss the 3 hours of commuting a day, I dont miss the tie, I dont miss being fake (my biggest pet peeve of the corporate world). I dont miss the back stabbing coworkers, I dont miss the $7 sandwiches in Midtown, I dont miss "The Man". I dont miss having my emails read, and phone calls recorded.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm quitting my job in corporate america Feb 25. This is going in my away message /images/graemlins/wink.gif

2ndGoat

[BradleyT]

Tell them you went over to help rebuild Iraq.

[lorinda]

Tell them the truth and explain it's taught you a lot about life.

You'll be better qualified than some geek who went straight from uni into a job and has never actually dealt with another human being on a professional basis.

Lori

[BradleyT]

Horrible advice.

[MikeyEdge]

Tell them that you were in jail.

[lorinda]

Why horrible?

Surely a pro gambler is a job like any other. You don't have to say you couldn't win enough, just say you didn't like the swings.

Lori

[BradleyT]

Perhaps in the UK it would be more acceptable (it seems like gambling in general is more acceptable there), but if he's planning on going back into corporate America that's career suicide.

It's been talked about many times about whether to put "gambler/poker player" on your resume and the consensus is always "no".

[Jezebel]

Professional poker may be becoming more "mainstream" but I would strongly advise against mentioning this in a job interview. A pro gambler is not like any other job in the minds of most corporate monkeys. You might have better luck telling them you tried your hand at drug smuggling but werent crazy about the hours.

[lorinda]

Thanks.

It wouldn't go down great here, but the honesty would at least almost make up for it.

Lori

[RollaJ]

[ QUOTE ]
Tell them that you were in jail.

[/ QUOTE ]

LoL, love it..... That would be just about as bad as saying you were a pro poker player /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Radio]

Just say you started your own buissness as an ebay trader or some other work from home online idea, But you would prefer a more stable income and thats why your going back to work.

[crockett]

I'll let you make your own decisons but I do have some thoughts.

I work for a major corporation (not in HR) and it is a well circulated fact that on initial scans of resumes one of the biggest red flags is "gaps". If the job receives a large number of resumes, any resume with a gap is immediately filed in the "not considered" pile. No call for an explanation, nothing. So if you do decide not to cover your gap, don't leave that space blank. I can't tell you what to put in that space because when I did work in HR at another company (which had the same policy) I never came across a resume that had a "gap" with an explanation. There were either no "gaps" or if there was a "gap" they were immediately filed and not considered again.

I'm sure a lot will depend on the employer, but I can say that it is 2 for 2 on the two major companies I'm personally aware of(and yes 2+2 I'm aware of the small sample size).

Of course, this shouldn't be a surpise. Absolutely no offense to you, I wish I had the guts to try it, but you have to look at it from the companies point of view. Why would they want to risk hiring someone for whatever reason was completely unemployed for an extended period of time. It's similar to playing poker. They are doing what is +EV for them. Sure, you might have a very reasonable and valid explanation (i.e. were very sick and recovery from some life threatening illness but now are perfectly hirable) or more likely you could be a person who on a whim will buy into a craze and quit his job to pursue some dream like playing poker professionally /images/graemlins/shocked.gif. They stand to lose all the time and money they have invested in you as an employee.

Good luck, I'm sure you'll do just fine.

[Cleveland Guy]

This thread should be a must read for everyone thinking of going pro.

[The once and future king]

Lorinda you need to have more conversations with non gamblers about gambling.

Has it escaped your notice about the stigma and the general deep ignorance of the concept of gambling and winning.

[Art Vandelay]

I understand your idea, and it is an honest approach to the OP's dilemna. However, pro gambling isn't exactly viewed as a honest and noble profession by the general public. In a lot of people's eyes, you could just put down "Jan '03-present Hooker on 42nd St" and it would held in the same regard as being a pro gambler.

When I interviewed for my current job (which kicks ass FWIW) and my boss asked me about hobbies I didn't even dare mention poker. I know it's a perfectly fine way to make a living and is fine to do, but I wasn't about to give a bad impression. Since I've been working here, my boss and co workers know I play and it's a non issue, but when you're on the outside looking in I think admitting to being an online pro is a bad idea when it comes to job prospects.

[lorinda]

It is likely that I am severely overestimating the intelligence of the people in charge.

Now I think about it, they screwed Rusty Jedi over because he declared gambling.

I said then, and I still believe it, that I wouldn't be able to work for someone who couldn't understand the simple math behind being a winning gambler.


Lori

[Art Vandelay]

Understanding the math and having an opinion on the morality of being a pro gambler are two very different things. I don't think math is the problem that employers have with gambling.

[mrjim]

If you're going to lie, I'd go with saying you were taking care of a sick relative. I use that for a work break in my history and it makes the interviewer very uncomfortable and they will quickly change the subject.

[OldLearner]

I took 6 months off after accepting a buy-out as part of an out-source.

In the first interview I had after my "sabbitical", I told them I didn't do anything for 6 months because I needed a break and could afford it. I told them I was refreshed and anxious to get back to work (that was the only part that was a lie).

They hired me the next day.

[lorinda]

Uh oh, now I really am lost.

You're saying that someone who understood the math, understood that you won at the game and understood how to calculate your risk of ruin and expected wages would still think you were wrong for doing it?

If so, this thread is no longer in my range of things I'm ever going to understand.

I have come across people who thought it was 'bad' because they thought I was going to lose all my money, but have never encountered someone who understood the math that thought it was bad.

Lori

[moondogg]

[ QUOTE ]
It is likely that I am severely overestimating the intelligence of the people in charge.

Now I think about it, they screwed Rusty Jedi over because he declared gambling.

I said then, and I still believe it, that I wouldn't be able to work for someone who couldn't understand the simple math behind being a winning gambler.


Lori

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think it's a question of intelligence or being able to understand the math, it's just ignorance. Most employers don't know anything about poker or how it can be profitable, simply because they have no reason to know about it.

However, they are correct in assuming that most poker players are losers. I understand from my own experience that a person can win and even make a living, but I probably would view it as a negative factor if someone mentioned it in an interview or on their resume. Most players are losers, and it's not worth my time to attempt to deduce whether a given applicant falls into the 10%-20% that actually do win, or whether he/she is just another losing gambler.

By making a career in poker, you are voluntarily entering into a stereotyped profession. If I were ever to quit my day job an go pro, I would mix a hell of a lot of independent software consulting as well. If anyone outside my close friends or immdiate family asked what I was doing, my response would be "freelance software, internet consulting, blah blah blah". Definitely not "professional poker player".

[lorinda]

Most players are losers, and it's not worth my time to attempt to deduce whether a given applicant falls into the 10%-20% that actually do win, or whether he/she is just another losing gambler.



That makes a lot of sense.

I still find it amazing that people are encouraged to lie about stuff, I guess that's just another reason that I'm unemployable /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Lori

[The once and future king]

[ QUOTE ]
f I were ever to quit my day job an go pro, I would mix a hell of a lot of independent software consulting as well. If anyone outside my close friends or immdiate family asked what I was doing, my response would be "freelance software, internet consulting, blah blah blah". Definitely not "professional poker player".

[/ QUOTE ]

So you would tender for work just so you could avoid telling people you are a professional poker player.

You should give less credence to the opinions of others.

[moondogg]

[ QUOTE ]
Most players are losers, and it's not worth my time to attempt to deduce whether a given applicant falls into the 10%-20% that actually do win, or whether he/she is just another losing gambler.



That makes a lot of sense.

I still find it amazing that people are encouraged to lie about stuff, I guess that's just another reason that I'm unemployable /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Lori

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't lie, I would just highlight certain parts more than others.

[moondogg]

[ QUOTE ]


So you would tender for work just so you could avoid telling people you are a professional poker player.



[/ QUOTE ]

Not exactly. I do enjoy doing independent consulting, and even if poker didn't existing I would still like venture out into my own business.
[ QUOTE ]

You should give less credence to the opinions of others.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really don't give a damn what people's opinions are deep in their heart of hearts, but I do care about having to deal with the inevitable ignorant blubbering which follows telling people you're a poker pro, regardless of whether people like it or hate it. Some will consider you a degenerate gambler, but others will keep asking you when you're going to be in the WSOP, which I find almost equally annoying.

[BradleyT]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
f I were ever to quit my day job an go pro, I would mix a hell of a lot of independent software consulting as well. If anyone outside my close friends or immdiate family asked what I was doing, my response would be "freelance software, internet consulting, blah blah blah". Definitely not "professional poker player".

[/ QUOTE ]

So you would tender for work just so you could avoid telling people you are a professional poker player.

You should give less credence to the opinions of others.

[/ QUOTE ]

Go and tell a client you're a gambler and see how fast they run.

[CORed]

You could tell them you were in prison /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[steamboatin]

I think if he was winning, he wouldn't be looking to rejoin the work force. Unless he is winning but not enough to cover his cost of living.

[BruinEric]

[ QUOTE ]
I worked as an accountant and also as an investment analyst, and i'm guessing that most employers won't be impressed that instead of working for the last year, i've been playing online poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

Job advice moment: In your interviews, never NEVER NEVER! mention that you took time off to play poker.

Some ideas for a truthful answer:

"I left my prior job to work on a business venture in software. After my initial efforts, I found that I really missed (insert dreadful job stuff here) as well as the environment of working with a team."

"I left my prior job to experiment with a modest e-commerce venture. I leared a lot about the business world while trying to run my own company, so I feel far more equipped to succeed now than ever."

You might want to put "self-employed" on your resume for the time you've been out of the regular workforce.

Most importantly, you need to convey that you have not been looking for a job all this time. Many firms will assume that you may be a laid off guy who can't find a job and stay away. You need to make it clear (see job hunter websites for help) that you LEFT your prior job (I'm assuming that's true.)

[Yeknom58]

It's not like you were out of work for like 5 years. Just say you took the year off to .... travel...help family...whatever..it's only a year.

[mj2]

Ok, everyone has been giving me suggestions about my resume. However, that was only half the question. The other half was how to fix my game. /images/graemlins/smile.gif I haven't completely made up my mind to go back to work. I still think poker can work out. I just think that I need to start considering work again because my results have not met my expectations. I'm making money. However, i'm only making about half of what I was when I was working. The main reason that i'm becoming very concerned is because the first 4 months went great, but i've lost the past 4 months. I haven't lost each of the last 4 months. In fact December was very good. However, i've lost in total for October through January. I feel like i've played even better the last 4 months than the first 4 months but my results are completely opposite. Another issue is the girlfriend. I've noticed some of you mentioning how a lot of people don't understand poker. Well, she fits into that category. She tries to be supportive. She doesn't nag me. But, at the same time, she doesn't understand it. What she sees, is that everyday at 6am, she gets up to go to her job at an investment firm and i'm still sleeping. Then she comes home exhausted and i'm chilling in my pajamas playing poker. Also, I believe in being honest. Especially with those you care about. So she is aware that things are not going as planned.

[rdu $teve]

Robert Varkoni did a bit about this on TV once. He was going to interviews to get back into the corporate life, and said he has trouble when they find out he won the WSOP in 2002. They always seem to think of him as less trustworthy.

[AceHighone]

Having good numbers does not translate to winning poker. Without dumping medium hands at the right time, playing medium hands aggressively at the right time, knowing how to extract extra bets and knowing when to limp with what might appear the best hand, you will not be able to turn you "good poker stats" into "good bank account stats".

[witeknite]

Could OP say that he tried a career in short term investments? They don't need to know that by short term he means, the river card.

WiteKnite

[Nightwish]

The problem is the following. Even if your prospective employer understands all the math, he may have concerns about you gambling. He doesn't know whether you're any good or not, and the fact that you understand the math doesn't mean that you don't go on tilt or play drunk or do other stupid things that land people in trouble. And if you do those things fairly often, he knows that you'll likely go bust. When you do, your work may suffer.

There's one last aspect to it. Gambling is more addictive than most other hobbies. Whether you're good at poker or not, your employer worries that gambling will become a higher priority for you than work. For a good example of this, notice all the 18 year old kids you see posting here and bragging about how they quit college to play poker, how they made hundreds of thousands of dollars last year, etc. I think gambling has a way of making you lose sight of the big picture.

[ddubois]

[ QUOTE ]
Robert Varkoni ... seem to think of him as less trustworthy.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think his problem was that he looked/sounded/acted like a total dweeb loser. If I was that socially inept, I wouldn't volunteer to be shown on TV.

[Losing all]

By "down the last 4 months" are you talking about winnings minus nut, or down? If down, get a job.

[Synergistic Explosions]

In my opinion, skill isn't the most important factor in surviving online play full time for income. Developing a long term strategy to extract a monthly income is what it's all about. In a low risk fashion.

With all the bonuses, reload bonuses, special promotions, free rolls, point buy in MTT's and MTT's with overlays, developing a monthly base income with no risk is easy.

From this no risk base, if you are a skilled player, you should have no problem guaranteeing yourself survival from month to month. In my opinion, survival is all that really matters. For if you don't survive to play another month, the gig is over for you. If you can't survive, you don't have the chance to progress forward into new and better strategies that work for you to extract greater sums each month on. In other words, surviving involves constantly tweaking your base strategy to allow better returns forward.

In my opinion, I feel it's best to start a full time gig online by having very modest goals. Survival to have enough money left to play the next month is goal one. So you need to figure out exactly how much you need to extract each month to survive. So you figure out exactly how much you need for bills, rent, food etc for each month and you go about earning it in the lowest risk fashion you can.

Once you survive several months, you gain a lot of knowledge, and are able to make better decisions for yourself. But always decisions based on low risk factors that you know to be true. Taking the risk out of poker, at least for me, is what it's all about now. If you put yourself at risk to many times, it will take you down. No matter how good you think you may be, or actually may be. Risk is the cancer in this gig, in my opinion. So minimize it to the greatest degree.

Again, I emphasize the importance of developing a low risk base strategy for monthly income using all the opportunities from paragraph two. For me, that alone nearly pays all my bills for each month.

Knowing this, I can make better decisions as I don't have the stress factor of needing to earn my income from table play alone. In fact, I don't find the need to move up in limits to do so. I'm a micro limit player compared to most full time players here. And I'm happy with that to the fullest degree. Because it works for me. I can always make the big scores in the virtually free MTT's I play on at any time. I don't need to risk my bankroll playing skilled poker players in higher limits. That would be disaster, since I've realized for a long time I'm not a very good poker player when compared to most.

That's the point entirely, you don't even have to be exceptionally good at poker to make a living from it, if your strategy is sound and your goals are modest especially in the beginning.

So what I'm trying to relay to you here, is don't give up yet. If you still have a bankroll left, you can do this. If you are a good player and really believe that, then your basic strategy for extracting a monthly income only needs to be tweaked and adjusted to gain a risk free base income to build from.

When I walked off my job I had 200 in the checking account and a 100 bankroll at Party Poker. After 22 months of full time play I have been able to meet my 2500 monthly expenses and build a bigger bankroll to be used for reload bonuses when needed. I have never had a backup stash for a new bankroll if I busted.

You have 18 hours a day to figure this out now. You can do it. Don't give up.

Sidenote: I always get slammed here for stating my views. I know many if not most of you will find my strategy useless and filled with flaws. For the successful high limit players here I'm sure what I say sounds hilarious. So you don't have to slam me into the ground once again.

But you have to remember there may be others like me who are highly adverse to risk but desire to make a living, albeit in a small time manner, from playing poker online. So what I stated is only what I have found to be true to accomplish these modest goals for myself. But I am not without hope for betterment into the future. I have high expectations to earn much more in MTT's as I progress my skill level in this area. But I'll never be able to progress into the higher buy ins there, if I don't survive in the here and now, from the month to month.

When it comes to online poker I'm very humble knowing my limitations. Working around these limitations from day to day is my greatest hurdle, but achievable with determination. My only determination, and it is the critical one for me, is to survive.

Have a nice day, now I must play.........

[Nightwish]

To get meaningful advice on this, you need to post your PT stats for the last 4 months.

Let me make the modest assumption that you play 6 hours a day, 5 days a week, and that you 4-table full ring games. Assuming you get 200 hands/hour, that means 100,000+ hands over the last 17 weeks. If you're down after 100,000 hands, you're almost certainly a losing player and need to look for a job.

[chrisdhal]

Actually, it's refreshing to hear something like this. Thanks!

[Hermlord]

[ QUOTE ]
Having good numbers does not translate to winning poker. Without dumping medium hands at the right time, playing medium hands aggressively at the right time, knowing how to extract extra bets and knowing when to limp with what might appear the best hand, you will not be able to turn you "good poker stats" into "good bank account stats".

[/ QUOTE ]

This is great poker advice. Playing well preflop, folding when you miss and raising when you hit will give you good numbers. But you must play marginal situations well postflop to win. The vast majority of your postflop hands are marginal, you must consistently make the right moves. Read SSH about 90 times, maybe drop a table or a limit until you feel good about it again.

As far as your resume, my stated career goal is Rock Star so I can't really help you. "Time off to become Rock Star" probably looks even worse than "Time off to become Poker Star."

[ddubois]

It seems to me that all these suggestions regarding clever euphemisms for playing poker are inevitably going to evoke follow-up questions:

"I tried to start an e-commerce venture that didn't work out, and now I'm ready to go back to work. The good aspect however was that it really gave me new found understanding for what it takes to run a business."

"Interesting. What kind of business was it?"

"Uhm, online short term investments"

"So.... You were a day trader, or?"

"Uhm"

[HopeydaFish]

[ QUOTE ]
It seems to me that all these suggestions regarding clever euphemisms for playing poker are inevitably going to evoke follow-up questions:

"I tried to start an e-commerce venture that didn't work out, and now I'm ready to go back to work. The good aspect however was that it really gave me new found understanding for what it takes to run a business."

"Interesting. What kind of business was it?"

"Uhm, online short term investments"

"So.... You were a day trader, or?"

"Uhm"

[/ QUOTE ]

"Yeah, my e-commerce company went bankrupt when I went all-in with KK and an A came up on the river."

[cyberSTACK]

Great post.

[Terry]

[ QUOTE ]
the first 4 months went great, but i've lost the past 4 months

[/ QUOTE ]

Please give us some specific information ... what level(s) you play, how many hours, win rate, how long and for how much did you beat those games before “going pro”?

Pure Speculation from Insufficient Data: I could very well be wrong, but from your total lack of specifics I think there is a good chance that you are a LAG player who ran good for a little while and things are now catching up to you as the other players adjust to your play.

Be my speculation right or wrong, some hard numbers will give us a whole lot to work with.

I agree, excellent post.

[mj2]

I'm actually very tight. Tighter than most. I play close to ITH preflop chart with a few modifications. I'm only somewhat aggressive. That's the one thing i'm working on and have slowly increased the aggression level the last couple of months. I usually play 2 games of 15/30 on party and occassionally 3 games. I can't understand what i'm doing so drastically wrong playing 15/30 as opposed to 3/6. Here are specific numbers for the last 7 months.
15/30: 121,820 hands, vpip 14%, pfr 6%, aggr 2.0,
winnings = $5,200, bb/100 = .14
3/6: 24,766, vpip 13%, pfr 6%, aggr 2.4,
winnings = $3,900, bb/100 = 2.61

[_And1_]

[ QUOTE ]
If you're going to lie, I'd go with saying you were taking care of a sick relative.

[/ QUOTE ] Is this the oldest lie in the industry? Been working as a pro bball agent and oboy, how many players dont have this on their CV, sure some have had sick relatives but the majority just put this in as they have been unable to find a team to play with/for...

Its a fine cause but it s lame to put on your cv, please lie better... /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[scotnt73]

i would say i took some time off to continue my education towards my next degree in this field that i plan on finishing on my own time while working here. i hope (insert company name here) will be behind me 100% in finishing this goal. what kind of tuition reimbursement does this company offer? because gosh darnit im a real go getter whos into continuing education and career advancement. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[umdpoker]

[ QUOTE ]
winnings = $5,200, bb/100 = .14


[/ QUOTE ]
does this include rakeback deals? i assume that with a good rakeback deal on top of these winnings, you could make decent money. it wouldn't be enough to replace a real job in most cases, but would be liveable while you learn to play better.

[MicroBob]

If and when I decide to get a 'real' job again I currently have intentions of being fully honest about my background.
That would also include info of how much more I made bia internet-poker than any other previous horrible-paying job I had before.

I they don't want to hire me than that's their problem. But I think I can still sell myself AND be honest about it. I think certain situations or certain people would be okay with it (while many others obviously would not).

I might be really naive though. And I don't recommend that the OP or anyone else try that approach unless they were comfortable with it.


If I wanted to come up with a plausible lie I would try to learn a little bit about the stock-market and say that I had been doing VERY well in my investing (wouldn't recommend saying 'day-trading') but that I was simply interested in joining a company where I can feel good about contributing to their long-term plan or overall goals (or whatever other corporate lingo you feel like inserting here).

[mj2]

no rake back deal. i know from reading that a lot of people do it. i've also read that it's not all that ethical so not sure what i think. from what i read, it sounds like i would have to open an account under a different name? i would rather know how i went from being up $17,000 after four months to only being up $9,000 after seven months. all i've done is slowly increase my pfr and aggression total. if anything, i feel like i play much better now than i did the first four months. i really don't want to go back to 3/6 after playing 15/30 for so long. but i'm seriously considering it.

[BeantownCaller]

20 % rakeback at 15/30 is a HUGE opportunity you're missing out on. How much does pokertracker say you've paid in rake during your just barely positive (in bb/100) last few months?

[BradleyT]

$15/$30 at 1,000 hands a day = ~$2100 per month rakeback.

[umdpoker]

[ QUOTE ]
$15/$30 at 1,000 hands a day = ~$2100 per month rakeback.

[/ QUOTE ]
damn! exactly how difficult is it to play beakeven poker there? just kidding. anyways, obviously the op should get a rakeback deal.

[yct]

I think there's nothing wrong with telling the truth. In fact, I think the employer is not stupid. If they find out you are lying, you are dead meat.

[IggyWH]

I think the key is coming up with a lie that not only works great (IE not too many questions will be asked about it) but also makes you look good at the same time.

A good one to use if you can use it correctly is an illness in your family. You could say something to the effect of your mother had (whatever) surgery and wasn't able to do things on her own for a while so you took off work to take care of her. Only thing about an excuse like that is you have to make it understood that they are back to 100% and there is no chance of you having to take care of them in the future. So while you explain the gap, you're also get those "nice guy" brownie points.

[MicroBob]

OP is probably too tight with some mis-timed aggression.

If I weren't doing well at 15/30 I would step back a level or two until I felt my chances of winning there were better.

In fact, this is EXACTLY what I've done. My problem was the opposite in that my aggro was too high and I was probably a tad too loose at 15/30.
I took a couple of shots and had some wild swings up and down.

In my latest down-swing I decided to step back again for a little bit. I don't think there is much shame in doing this and don't know what the problem is.

Total reluctance to do this when it's obvious you should be doing it can be the downfall of your online-poker career.

So...I'm hanging out at the 5/10 6-max games now. And if things go badly there then I'll go back to the 3/6 full games. If things go badly there then I'll multi-table the crypto 1/2 games to get my bonus-money there and will hop around from one bonus to another.

Thankfully, things have gone very well for me so far at 5/10 6-max and I am fixing some leaks. But if they weren't going well then I don't see what the problem is with stepping down as low as you need to in order to preserve your bankroll.

on the 5/10 6-max I've been tightening up my game a little bit (even on the 6-max) and timing my aggression better, making better folds, etc,
and believe I could already go back to the 15/30 full games and win (and I still have the bank-roll to do this).

The reason I'm not going straight back up to 15/30 yet is that I want to continue winning at 5/10 6-max for a longer period first.
I can make decent money there. Not too hard to get in 10k hands a week multi-tabling trying to win 2BB/100 for $2k/wk (or a lesser win-rate with slightly more hands during the week).


If you are completely determined to stay at the 15/30 (and I assume you have the bankroll to do so) then go ahead and post HH's and ask questions and read threads in the M/H forum. This is the way to fix your game and it should be obvious.


You don't have a rake-back deal which is missing out on A LOT of money. If you have some moral objection to rake-back because it's against the rules then that's one thing...but otherwise I don't get it.
Not sure if you are using gametime+ or playerview in addition to pokertracker.
Not sure if you are using the M/H or SSforums to try to identify your leaks.
Not sure if you have read and re-reah SSHE (or even ITH) a zillion times over.
Not sure if you are just sticking with the same type of game and aren't sure what you are doing wrong.

You have moved from 3/6 to 15/30...and say that you haven't really changed anything. Well, the aggression level at 15/30 is generally much higher than 3/6 and it is important to have good reads. If you can't figure out that there are some adjustments to be made moving from the 3/6 to the 15/30 just by having played in the games then there isn't much I can do to help. These are fairly obvious differences imo.


Oh yeah...SE's post was REALLY REALLY good.
Between bonus-whoring at different sites, reloads, freerolls, etc...it shouldn't be too tough to make a liveable income. You don't HAVE to multi-table the 15/30 to make a living-wage.

[MicroBob]

[ QUOTE ]
i would rather know how i went from being up $17,000 after four months to only being up $9,000 after seven months.

[/ QUOTE ]



I'm pretty sure this doesn't mean you only have $9k in your entire bankroll.
If it does then you need to get out of the 15/30 immediately as you are not sufficiently funded to play there.

[byronkincaid]

Quality post SE.

[morgant]

agreed!!

[Baulucky]

That's it. Outstanding post.

[Jim T]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm actually very tight. Tighter than most. I play close to ITH preflop chart with a few modifications. I'm only somewhat aggressive. That's the one thing i'm working on and have slowly increased the aggression level the last couple of months. I usually play 2 games of 15/30 on party and occassionally 3 games. I can't understand what i'm doing so drastically wrong playing 15/30 as opposed to 3/6. Here are specific numbers for the last 7 months.
15/30: 121,820 hands, vpip 14%, pfr 6%, aggr 2.0,
winnings = $5,200, bb/100 = .14
3/6: 24,766, vpip 13%, pfr 6%, aggr 2.4,
winnings = $3,900, bb/100 = 2.61

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand why you seem to be ignoring the levels in between 3/6 and 15/30.

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]
If so, how did you explain that on your resume?

[/ QUOTE ]

Tell them that during that time you played poker professionally and were moderately successful. You made enough not to starve but the added tax, health insurance cost along with the lack of available good games in your area playing professionally difficult. It became very apparent that in order to generate enough income to maintain a decent quality of life, you would have to move to Vegas were the action is. That was your plan until you found out that your dog is allergic to cactii and flashing neon lights sometimes cause you to go into epileptic fits.

Stu

[mrjim]

worked very well for me...

[ThePinkBunny]

Switch places? Uh... no. A job can be much for fun, if you don't need it. Besides, I'm thinking of applying at Hooters.

[MMMMMM]

[ QUOTE ]

Tell them that you were in jail.

[/ QUOTE ]

Alternatively you could tell them it's none of their damn business.

[MMMMMM]

[ QUOTE ]
I worked as an accountant and also as an investment analyst, and i'm guessing that most employers won't be impressed that instead of working for the last year, i've been playing online poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you find a way to work for yourself in those fields?

[RainDog]

Back to the issue of what to tell your employer. I agree that not only will most view it as gambling and will likely not want a gambler on their team. But there is also that moral implication as well. I've had numerous friends and some potential employers frown on the idea of me playing poker for a living not because it can't be done but that it doesn't comply with their ideal of what work ethic is and what is a good role in society. People don't always appreciate shortcuts to wealth or easy ways out of the 9 to 5 loop. I've never understood this stigma, as it just doesn't make sense anywhere in my belief system. But it's there, people value their hard work and as much as they complain about their jobs I suppose it makes them feel American or something. And like you said with your girlfriend, it will continue getting under her skin seeing you still in your pajamas sipping coffee when she gets home from her 7am job. Of course if you could win enough for her to quit and even teach her to play, it would be a different story.

Simply put, don't mention poker. If I was your potential employer I wouldn't hire you not because you tried the poker thing, but because you lost at it. Obviously bad business decisions...Really, use the "time off with family to cool off and now your back with peace of mind" excuse. The travelling for a year also works like a charm. It's what I always use, but I have travelled for a year in Europe...makes for easy conversation.

On the other hand...I don't see any reason for you to return to work. Those stats prove you are a break even player and with a rakeback deal you will make some good money. There are no rules against closing your account and opening a new one (People here have even e-mailed Party with their intentions of closing and opening back up with rakeback and have done it with no ill feedback on Party's behalf). There are also no rules against opening up another skin and they have no problems with you signing up under rakeback. You're concerned with borderline rules, but you are breaking a lot of borderline rules right now. Go for it!

And jesus man, take a step back from 15/30. My problem there is that I can't psychologically handle that amount of money being pushed around on the table, even if it is otherwise a very beatable game to me. I'm not sure how you're falling short...but go multi-table 5/10 (6 max). Or 2/4, 3/6 even. There's no reason why you shouldn't be able to make an easy $20-$30/hr 4 tabling 2/4 without the stress of those big swings until you get more financially comfortable. And with rakeback on top of that? You're solid!

[richrf]

Hi mj2,

There are lots of people out looking for jobs nowadays who have been looking a lot longer than 7 months, so I wouldn't be concerned about this. What I would say is that "I thought I would try out a private practice but that I decided that I was better at working in larger companies as part of a group/team effort."

This kind of thing happens all the time (i.e., people trying out new things and then deciding it was not for them), so I do not think you need to give it a second thought. One thing I learned very early in life, is to cut my losses as soon as possible. It has saved me a ton of money and troubles throughout my life.

[Beavis68]

[ QUOTE ]
I took 6 months off after accepting a buy-out as part of an out-source.

In the first interview I had after my "sabbitical", I told them I didn't do anything for 6 months because I needed a break and could afford it. I told them I was refreshed and anxious to get back to work (that was the only part that was a lie).

They hired me the next day.

[/ QUOTE ]

This sounds decent.

You could just say you had some money saved up and needed some personal time - "personal" may keep them from asking about it further.

[alabubba]

[ QUOTE ]
Again, I emphasize the importance of developing a low risk base strategy for monthly income using all the opportunities from paragraph two. For me, that alone nearly pays all my bills for each month.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wisdom.

[Terry]

[ QUOTE ]
15/30: 121,820 hands, vpip 14%, pfr 6%, aggr 2.0,
winnings = $5,200, bb/100 = .14
3/6: 24,766, vpip 13%, pfr 6%, aggr 2.4,
winnings = $3,900, bb/100 = 2.61

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, I take it back. You’re not a LAG. /images/graemlins/wink.gif You’re actually a few points tighter than I am. I play 16% at bigger games to 19% at smaller ones.

Here is a simple experiment you might want to try: Change your screen name. If your results improve significantly it probably means there are some players who have detected some weakness in your play who are taking advantage. It’s not at all uncommon to do well in a new place and have results deteriorate once the better players adjust to your play.

If that seems to help (or even if it doesn’t), the next step is to spend some time with PT to find out who is beating you, and how. Open the screen that shows your win/loss against other players and look for people you have quite a few hands against who are clearly beating you and spend some time reviewing those hands. Are you paying off (or folding to) too many check raises, folding too much to maniacs, failing to build big pots with big draws, going too far with weak hands (against players who don’t bet weak hands), missing chances to isolate weak players?

Don’t just look at the hands you played against the players who beat you – look at the hands they played against others to get some insight into what they are up to. Does that guy routinely check raise bluff when the board pairs? Does an out of the blue bet mean a bluff or does it mean he made something? Does he only bet “real” hands?

The best result would, of course, be that your research detects some things that you can work on. If it doesn’t, well, perhaps the difference is simply that $15/$30 is a tougher game than $3/$6 and you’re just not skilled enough yet to play at that level ... but some serious time spent analyzing your own play as well as the play of others you can change that.

I also suggest that it may be a good idea to try playing only one game at a time for a while to try to get some deeper thinking about the game. Experience is very important ... it takes a while for the auto-pilot to learn to make good decisions. What it comes down to, I guess, is that after you’ve studied the books, you must then study the game – your own, and that of your opponents.

Oh ... you mentioned ITH. You have studied HPFAF, TOP, and SSH, right? They ARE mandatory.

BTW, I haven’t had a job since a few months after Planet Poker opened. I have had one losing month. I play $2/$4 (yep) up to $15/$30, whatever game looks juicy. I have no shame. $20/hour from a couple of small games that I can play on auto-pilot while I’m scouting for a good bigger game keeps something coming in ... it adds up.

Hope you find something to help keep you out of Cubicle World. Good luck.

[Nightwish]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm actually very tight. Tighter than most. I play close to ITH preflop chart with a few modifications. I'm only somewhat aggressive. That's the one thing i'm working on and have slowly increased the aggression level the last couple of months. I usually play 2 games of 15/30 on party and occassionally 3 games. I can't understand what i'm doing so drastically wrong playing 15/30 as opposed to 3/6. Here are specific numbers for the last 7 months.
15/30: 121,820 hands, vpip 14%, pfr 6%, aggr 2.0,
winnings = $5,200, bb/100 = .14
3/6: 24,766, vpip 13%, pfr 6%, aggr 2.4,
winnings = $3,900, bb/100 = 2.61

[/ QUOTE ]
Looking at those stats, if I were you, I would drop back down from 15/30 immediately.

[mj2]

Well, how do you get a rake-back deal if you already have a party account? Everything i've seen involves signing up a new account under a related sight. Also, didn't I recently read that doing that might not work anymore? How do you find a reliable person to sign up through. I've seen the add on here about frequent floppers but that isn't for cash.

[2ndGoat]

"freelance software, internet consulting, blah blah blah"

In addition to going pro end of this month, I'm also going to be doing some IT jobs with a coworker and some friends for microbusinesses. Maybe only 5 hours a month, but could end up saving a career, if I ever want to get back into it...

2ndGoat

[2ndGoat]

Lorinda,

I would rather be broke than have to lie to someone to avoid their misconceptions about a previous profession, though I believe that these two are not mutually exclusive when it comes to poker.

Two points:
1) I suspect you maintain similar preferences/beliefs.
2) I (and perhaps you, per 1) may be a member of a very small minority in this regard, and there appears to be a good amount of weight to this mutual exclusion argument.

2ndGoat

[MaxPower]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm actually very tight. Tighter than most. I play close to ITH preflop chart with a few modifications. I'm only somewhat aggressive. That's the one thing i'm working on and have slowly increased the aggression level the last couple of months. I usually play 2 games of 15/30 on party and occassionally 3 games. I can't understand what i'm doing so drastically wrong playing 15/30 as opposed to 3/6. Here are specific numbers for the last 7 months.
15/30: 121,820 hands, vpip 14%, pfr 6%, aggr 2.0,
winnings = $5,200, bb/100 = .14
3/6: 24,766, vpip 13%, pfr 6%, aggr 2.4,
winnings = $3,900, bb/100 = 2.61

[/ QUOTE ]
Looking at those stats, if I were you, I would drop back down from 15/30 immediately.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, and learn to play pre-flop. Then work on the rest of your game.

[YoureToast]

On my resume, which had no gaps, I put "Poker" as one of my "interests". It helped me get my job.

Do not lie. You want to go to a place that you, as you are, are welcomed. Be who you are and if they don't like it, look elsewhere. Thats better for you in the long run anyway.

All these posters suggesting you lie or mislead do not see the big picture IMHO.

[Shaun]

But continue with the poker the rest of the time. I'd also learn how to play no limit. Limit poker can have some really outrageous streaks that just seem to defy all logic. I'm not saying this is you- chances are your game needs to improve relative to your competition- but it wouldn't hurt to try lower limits and/or NL.

[mj2]

The reason that i didn't mention the levels between 3/6 and 15/30 is because it was my understanding that these were the best games on party poker. From my personal experience and from what i've read on this site, 5/10 and 10/20 tend to be much tighter than the 3/6 and 15/30 games. Is this not true?