100-200 hand

[HiatusOver]

Full Decent Game...Check-raising is legal

2 off the button Open Raises he is Tight/Unknown, blinds and button are tightish...I call the raise with K /images/graemlins/club.gifQ /images/graemlins/club.gif, Big Blind calls.

Flop Comes K /images/graemlins/heart.gif3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Tight/Unkown bets, I CALL, BB folds

Turn 7 /images/graemlins/club.gif

Tight/Unkown bets, I CALL

River 2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

Tight/Unkown checks, I BET

[bicyclekick]

I 3 bet here pre-flop.

Given that you didn't I like the way you played the hand.

[Ian J]

Well done, sir.

[DcifrThs]

looks like he could have 88-QQ. in fact, i'd think a tight unknown is very likely to have exactly that...let you bluff you're "diamond draw" on the river...

i think you played it spot on. the only thing that would suck is being c'red on the river...but how can he expect you to bet after all you've done is call and THEN call a raise if you only have a bluff?

-Barron

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
I 3 bet here pre-flop.

Given that you didn't I like the way you played the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

i know its posterior justification, but his not 3betting likely earned him bets he would not have gotten had he done it...

-Barron

[TStoneMBD]

if the player you describe is weak tight, i think 3 betting preflop here is the correct play as you will take down many flops when you miss. conversely, i think you are better off raising the turn against TAG players because calling on the turn shows nearly as much strength as raising. if he is weak-tight he probably isnt capable of betting the river with a hand that he would fold on the turn for a raise. your call on the turn represents a K or a PP, either of which you should be capable of raising with on the turn. a standard line for deception would be to raise the turn with a PP and check the river, even though the play might have a slight negative expectation tied onto it. even an unknown at this level should be aware of this, and therefore i think raising the turn will show better results in the long run.

[mike l.]

are you in the cutoff? how about just folding KQ there? i bet the guy ends up having aces.

anyway seriously you played it fine i think. i like how you just called the flop and turn.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
if the player you describe is weak tight, i think 3 betting preflop here is the correct play as you will take down many flops when you miss

[/ QUOTE ]

now that i like and can agree with

-Barron

[HiatusOver]

A case could definitely be made for 3-betting he wasnt weak tight though...I think one important thing in this hand is that raising the turn could be right even if it is slightly -EV if this hand was in a vacuum. The reason for that is cover for turn semi-bluffs. Seems to me that most really tough as nails high limit players are always raising the turn...they probably have the hand 75 percent of the time and are semi-bluffing/bluffing the other 25...I bet these players would raise the turn

[Ian J]

I think if the BB called the flop bet a turn raise is a no brainer. However, without his presence the unknown has very few outs if you're in front and raising the turn will only allow him to get away from TT and the like.

I do see your point about the future turn semibluffs, but he has to see that you had a big hand here. This means you have to get looked up or show your hand. I like your line better here.

[HiatusOver]

Yes I am in the cut-off. Folding never crossed my mind, although I would probably fold KJs here, so maybe folding is way closer than I think, but i have and probably never will fold in this spot unless I know the guy has AA,KK, or QQ.

[fsuplayer]

have you read his posts before? mike l. is kidding. I wouldnt fold KJs here either.

[HiatusOver]

Yes I have read too many of Mike's posts to count...thats why I guess I have no clue if he is serious or not here. The guy switches moods and playing styles more than Ron Artest

[TheCodeDog]

I wish Artest would sometimes switch his playing style.

[SA125]

Is the smooth call of the turn respect, to induce a bluff river bet, or a little of both? Even though he's tight, he's two off the button and I would have popped it.

[HiatusOver]

The turn call was a product of the "way ahead, or way behind" theory. If you asked me at that point to bet on whether I thought I was ahead or behind, I would have definitely said ahead. With the flush draw out there I was pretty sure I would be paid off on the river with as little as A high on a non-diamond river. Also I was planning on raising most rivers

[mike l.]

"have you read his posts before? mike l. is kidding."

wrong again. KQs is a great hand.

to poop on.

[fsuplayer]

so you are folding KQs to an openraise from the hijack seat when you have position on him?

seems wrong to me unless the guy is a nit who doesnt adjust his open raising standards in late position, so him raising is AQ or better.

[YoureToast]

This post and the answers clearly illustrates a leak in my game. In this situation, with the BB behind me, I tend to raise the flop here. It better assures me of getting the BB to fold and also gives me more information on what the PFR may have. What am I missing with this analysis? I play in the Party 15/30 with success but I'm always trying to improve.

PS. If this were heads up, I clearly may just call the flop.

[HiatusOver]

Raising this flop is a very normal default play and doing it all the time doesnt qualify as a real leak in your game IMO. My reasoning for not raising the flop were....
1. It disguises my hand
2. Only one free card can beat me and the PFR might have that card anywhere
3. The BB is most likely fold here unless he has a K, set or diamond draw. He is paying 2 bets for any of those so I dont think putting pressure on him is too important
4. If the BB decides to call with a weak hand that he would normally have folded he only has a very few number of outs anyways (3 or less) so I dont really mind.
5. If the Pre-Flop raiser does have me beat, not raising the flop here will probably save me money in the long run, if he doesnt have me beat...not raising the flop here might encourage him to call me or continue to bet with a weak holding.

If both blinds were in I think I definitely raise this flop. If the BB calls the flop in this hand I think I am more likely to raise the turn. I certainly would raise any turn diamond.

[elysium]

hi hiatus

this looks a lot like he doesn't think you wiil call if he bets. he has you on the flush draw.....it's too bad you don't have more experience against this opponent.

this is a matter of bankroll. the problem is that he is likely to raise often enough that if you can't afford a lot of swings, you should make these routine check-downs on your game plan. it's a value bet....but these swing around.

[Nomar]

how would you have played a flop that you missed ?

Axx one of your suite ?

10-4-2 none of your suite ??

I would assume you were not in the "fit or fold" mindset, some sort of outplaying attempt was going to be made....

[HiatusOver]

Ely I try to not consider bankroll when I make my river decisions. I think if I check behind this river then I blew the whole hand, but I agree that a check-raise is gonna come sometimes, and is probably the correct play by him with a hand like AA. I think that if I consistently fold to this river checkraise then my bankroll will never be a problem

[HiatusOver]

I think I was definitely going to try to outplay some of these flops. Unfortunatley my floating strategy is far from refined. I know that I fold a lot when a floater raises this flop and then follows through on the turn so maybe I should do this to the raiser on half the flops in some sort of game theory selection process. I know that just calling the raise becomes a lot worse when I dont use my position to outplay every once in a while

[elysium]

hi hiatus

no hiatus. you must call the check-raise. if you're not going to call the check-raise, then never make this bet.

he has you on a busted draw. when he check-raises, there are so many hands that you are ahead of that he thinks represent value, and that he might be check-raising as such, that you must call that check-raise. he's got you on Axs with a lousy pair. this is so highly probable his read that you must call. add to this the fact that there is also some possibility that he might have missed his draw, and is check-raising to foldout......chit hiatus. i have to address that.

mason teaches that when your opponent puts you on a draw as a strong likely candidate of one of your possible holdings, but then makes what appears to be a value bet or raise, you must ask yourself one very important question; 'where is there any value of betting into a busted draw?'. there is some slight possibility that he is powerfully strong or that he thinks that you will make a rare 3-bet bluff on the river, but far more probably, he thinks that if he bets or raises, you will fold.

he thinks you will fold.

now, there are other possibilities which gives him a value check-raise on the river, however, as complex and menacing these other possibilities are, thankfully, you need not concern yourself with them. the size of the pot does your thinking for you.

we go into a lot of theory and conjecture here at 2+2 when up-threading a post. we think about all the possibilities. but you need not do that at the table, especially when your call closes the action. all you need is to identify that 1 possibility and estimate approximately how often your opponent will read you for the busted draw, and then estimate what percentage of the pot approximates 1 bet. if you are visualizing the likelihood of your opponent's read being the busted draw and you are visualizing it on a pie chart, and a goodly slice approximates the likelihood of his read being the busted; but when you visualize the approximate percentage of the pot that equals 1 bet, that visualization isn't a pie graph or chart, but literally the actual physical size of your 1 bet's worth of chips juxtaposed to the pot's size, and you see that it is a very big/ very small relationship when visualizing 1 bet vs. the pot, but large/ medium when visualizing the slice of pie on the pie chart vs. the size of his read being the busted, you no longer need to think about the other possibilities, even if the majority of the time he will be reading you for a hand that gives his check-raise value, and makes it impossible for you to win the hand, the majority of the time.

he may have a read that gives him a value check-raise the majority of the time, but in spite of the fact that it very well might be ultimately the more accurate assessment, it is useless, extraneous data that serves no useful purpose to us after the instant we see a big slice of the pie, and a miniscule teeny tiny bet.

you must call the check-raise. in fact, one of the reasons for betting out is that the action in the hand has washed out the virility of the possible check-raise. you are not betting because you can easily fold to the check-raise, you are betting because you can easily make the call. we can then betout assuredly, daring our opponent to check-raise us, because we can confidently make the call, even though the majority of the time, we will lose when check-raised; extraneous information so worthless to us that we don't even pause for a second to ponder over it.

your opponent's read; that is all you need to make the call. but you must first know that a goodly slice on the pie chart of his possible reads is consumed by his putting you on the busted draw, and of course you must know what that means and how to handle it. and so we go over this chit. we rehash the basics, everyday.

[TStoneMBD]

i dont see how you can consider folding to a cr from an unknown. regardless this is an obvious river bet.

[mike l.]

"so you are folding KQs to an openraise from the hijack seat when you have position on him?"

no im sometimes 3 betting. it depends on the player. almost everything depends on the player(s). this sounded like it might be a good time to fold instead of reraise, calling being the worst option by a little i think, for reasons other posters went over.

"seems wrong to me unless the guy is a nit who doesnt adjust his open raising standards in late position, so him raising is AQ or better."

even if it's 99 or TT why get involved for 2-3 sbs with players behind you still to act. the times it's AA, AK, KK, QQ, AQ are just gonna suck so bad. against unknowns who seem to play tight and careful just steer clear until you see them get out of line.

and maybe some of it's just feel. i had AQ on the button a week ago and a guy who was clearly a complete rock openraised two to my right. this was clearly not a steal raise, i had a really good sense i should dump and i did. the guy had AA.

[HiatusOver]

He checked the river, I bet he called. I think he could easily be calling with A high here

[Clarkmeister]

It's just a bad situation for a preflop coldcall IMO. You really put yourself in a bad postflop situation most of the time (which is when you miss) unless the opponent is very weak. Your postflop line is fine.

[BarronVangorToth]

Again, post-flop is fine and he probably has you on a busted draw on the river but, like I said in the other thread, why is this automatically a call? It's CLOSE and player-dependent but not too many are bringing up the point that this is a potential (and quality) fold many times preflop.

I realize there is a growing trend to talk about postflop play as the preflop hand selection discussions have gone on so long and there is so much debate with limping or what to call limps with but when it comes from a raiser, someone who is unknown and tight AND at these stakes, why even bother to get involved at this juncture? If he's raising everything, then, sure, but if he's tight and not -- what hands are you beating?

Maybe it's a monster leak, but I'd argue the preflop fold since you aren't one of the blinds.

Barron Vangor Toth
www.BarronVangorToth.com (http://www.BarronVangorToth.com)

[AviD]

*DELETED*

[Gabe]

[ QUOTE ]
It's just a bad situation for a preflop coldcall IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think it's that bad.

[HiatusOver]

Spoken like a true floater Gabe...

Clark are you suggesting a fold or a 3-bet then?

I'm not sure if calling is right, but it seems to have advantages.

1. My hand is good and plays well multi-way
2. I still have a very good shot at the best possible position unless button wakes up with a pretty solid hand
3. The raiser is going to auto-bet mosts flops giving me some playing advantages.
4. I am not forced to 3-bet and keep betting with a hand that probably doesnt win the showdown unimproved too often.

[Clarkmeister]

"Clark are you suggesting a fold or a 3-bet then?"

No, I think calling is probabaly better than folding by a little bit, especially if one plays well postflop, which I think you do.