Is Torture Justified?

[jimdmcevoy]

I don't usually post here, but I wanted to hear people's opinions about this

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=3&u=/ap/20050127/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/guantanamo_sex_vs_faith_7

If this is true, which wouldn't suprise me, does anyone think this should or should not be done?

[lastchance]

Some of this stuff is disgusting, but to have an effective interrogation tactics, you need to put the prisoners under duress.

How likely is it torture someone who had not done anything at all?

How far should they be allowed to go in this world?

[MMMMMM]

"The female interrogator wanted to "break him," Saar adds, describing how she removed her uniform top to expose a tight-fitting T-shirt and began taunting the detainee, touching her breasts, rubbing them against the prisoner's back and commenting on his apparent erection."


Sorry but that doesn't sound like torture to me.

[lastchance]

Heh, what happens when the thing you believe the most in is completely trampled?

There are many ways to torture someone without beating and lynching them.

(deleted for bad example)

Oh, and while making this post, I just realized something.... Could this be counted as sexual assault, since the prisoner was (I assume) restrained?

[Voltron87]

The US should not allow torture to be used, ever. It is not even an effective method of finding information since people will say whatever they can if the pain is bad enough. So if its basically useless, the US should not further destroy its moral credibility.

[Q8offsuit]

Cripes! Ban the long links!

[MMMMMM]

Whatever...it isn't TORTURE.

Perfect example of failing to differentiate adequately.

And as for "What happens when the thing you believe in most is trampled?", well, welcome to the real world. Happens all the time, happens to everyone. The things I believed in most, loved most, and wished for most, were trampled by Life itself. Do I have a case.

[Wake up CALL]

[ QUOTE ]
The US should not allow torture to be used, ever. It is not even an effective method of finding information since people will say whatever they can if the pain is bad enough. So if its basically useless, the US should not further destroy its moral credibility.

[/ QUOTE ]

Spoken like someone never exposed to finely honed torture techniques.

[QuadsOverQuads]

It's very interesting to watch all these self-proclaimed "anti-big-government conservatives" suddenly rushing to the defense of state torture ... just as long as their party is running the show, of course. It says a lot.


q/q

[Wake up CALL]

I hate to burst your bubble but if that wimp Ted Kennedy was torturing potential terrorists I'd be cheering him on as well. It appears you just don't get it. Being a fiscal conservative yet salivating over some good homegrown torutre techniques are not mutually exclusive.

[QuadsOverQuads]

[ QUOTE ]
It appears you just don't get it. Being a fiscal conservative yet salivating over some good homegrown torture techniques are not mutually exclusive.

[/ QUOTE ]

Far from it. In fact, I think they frequently go hand-in-glove. It's just good to see the American "conservative" movement finally coming clean about what it really stands for.


q/q

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
Some of this stuff is disgusting, but to have an effective interrogation tactics, you need to put the prisoners under duress.

How likely is it torture someone who had not done anything at all?

How far should they be allowed to go in this world?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok then. What would you think if next time you or someone you know were arrested for ANY reason, you were subjected to torture because you must know SOMETHING about SOMEONE.

Stupidity. Barely worse than the Germans in WWII.

Again, clear this up for me; this is the country we are SAVING?

[CORed]

I wonder how many of our "Orange Alert" false alarms have been the result of somebody in Guantanamo making up a story about a terrorist plot to satisfy the interrogators.

[CORed]

If we were 99% sure that somebody knew where a bomb was located (nuclear or otherwise) that was due to go off in a few hours, I would say that torture might justified. But my guess about the people at Guantanamo is that a lot of the people there don't know anything useful. Some of the prisoners at Guantanamo may be high level Al Queda or Taliban people, but the majority of them are poor ignorant chumps who got just thought they were doing what Allah wants them to do, and got taken prisoner when the Taliban was defeated. I don't feel too bad for the folks that really were involved in plotting terrorism against us, but I do feel bad for the poor Afghani farmers or nomads who probably had very little idea what all of this was really about.

[jimdmcevoy]

Okay, maybe the word 'torture' wasn't the correct word.

Let's call it 'interogation tactics' if you'd prefer.

But let me get this straight, you reckon because you have experienced extreme mental pain, this gives liscense to interogaters to inflict extreme mental pain on prisinors?

[zaxx19]

Far from it. In fact, I think they frequently go hand-in-glove. It's just good to see the American "conservative" movement finally coming clean about what it really stands for.



What do you think their ultimate goals are???

How sinister do you think GWB is???

What evidence do you have to support and suppositions on this??

[MMMMMM]

[ QUOTE ]
Okay, maybe the word 'torture' wasn't the correct word.

Let's call it 'interogation tactics' if you'd prefer.

But let me get this straight, you reckon because you have experienced extreme mental pain, this gives liscense to interogaters to inflict extreme mental pain on prisinors?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, and I did not intend to suggest that. I was just pointing out that "trampling the things one holds most dear" (or whatever the exact words might have been) is not torture either--and it also happens to be a fairly commonplace occurrence dished out by life itself. In other words, humans can do a lot of far worse things to others than merely "trampling that which is held most dear (ideologically".

[jimdmcevoy]

I dunno man, I'll never know for sure unless I talk to this Muslim prisoner, but I can't think of many things that I could put him through that are worse than convincing him his connection with god is severed.

[chabibi]

I cant believe some of you are comparing a woman in a mini skirt to what thousands of American POWs experienced in Vietnam. Criminal interrogators deprive detainees of sleep all the time in order to break them and they are working within the law, that could be considered torture by some. The tactics that I read in this article seem like a great way to cause serious discomfort to the detainees without causing them any real harm. When the US starts throwing these detainees in a sack with a bunch of angry rats and starts beating the sack, then there will be a serious issue to debate

[jimdmcevoy]

I have no idea what GWB's intentions are, all I can comment on are his results, which I think suck.

I'd give some one 10-1 odds that the vast majority of Iraqi citizens would rather America never entered. As in being able to vote for a new leader does not compensate for all the hardships they have been put through (and that assumes they want to vote for leaders, which I see no reason to assume). And I haven't seen much evidence that Sudaam was any threat, hence I don't see any pros, and I see a lot of cons.

Sudaam was no where near getting anything nuclear, and I believe this was clear to all, and my reasoning is that if American thought that him having chemical weapons endagered America, then they probably wouldn't have given Sudaam some in the first place.

If I wasn't lazy I could find many other leaders that have been and still are much more harsh on his citizens. I've heard of some terrible things happening in Africa for instance.

As for Al Quaida, even if they were responsible for 9/11 (is Al Quaida big in Saudia Arabia? I heard most of these 9/11 dudes were from Saudia Arabia) any hinderance America has done to them I think is outweighed by the negative effect of increased hatred for America by millions of other Muslims (thinking a little more long term here).

So, my opinion is:

Bush's results suck.

I also think Bush lies a fair bit. But he may well think he is doing what's best for everyone, there is no way to tell.

[jimdmcevoy]

[ QUOTE ]

The tactics that I read in this article seem like a great way to cause serious discomfort to the detainees without causing them any real harm


[/ QUOTE ]

Neither I nor you have any idea exactly how much mental pain and anguish this has caused the prisoner.

So you are saying the rule is, mental pain ok, physical pain a no-no?

Who knows, maybe this guy would have prefered that his arm was ripped off.

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
I cant believe some of you are comparing a woman in a mini skirt to what thousands of American POWs experienced in Vietnam. Criminal interrogators deprive detainees of sleep all the time in order to break them and they are working within the law, that could be considered torture by some. The tactics that I read in this article seem like a great way to cause serious discomfort to the detainees without causing them any real harm. When the US starts throwing these detainees in a sack with a bunch of angry rats and starts beating the sack, then there will be a serious issue to debate

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, we should wait until it gets worse to debate this. For now, the punching, kicking, electrocutions, humiliations, and depravations should continue.

Always great to have regimes such as the Nazis and the Viet Cong to cast a favorable light on your own misdeeds.

"Osama bin Laden is no big deal. Pol Pot killed millions, as did Stalin. Lets wait until OBL kills MILLIONS, then we can talk about how bad a guy he is"

[chabibi]

i didnt make the rules i just follow them,
depriving people of sleep for days and forcing them to spend days or even weeks in solitude causes great mental stress and yet no one seems to mind that this is done all the times to criminal suspects and prisoners in amrican prisons. so why is the case different when the person is not american?

[jimdmcevoy]

Well, I think the mental stress they are putting on these prisoners is much more than the mental stress acquired from just sleep deprivation and solitude.

Btw I do not condone your said methods of inflicting mental stress on american prisoners, but right now there are bigger fish to fry.

[chabibi]

the article said nothing of punching, kicking or electrocutions. perhaps you are confusing Guantanamo bay with abu graib. these are two different incidents, i will concede that my limited knowledge of the facts is limited, however one seems like a clear case of prisoner abuse and torture and the people involved should receive severe consequences. the other seems like standard interrogation tactics used by the US military. I believe we are talking about the latter.

[man]

I feel like people are discussing the wrong aspects of this issue, and it seems like a lot of the miscommunication is because of differing views of torture.

Dictionary.com defines torture: Infliction of severe physical pain as a means of punishment or coercion. Personally, I think that definition is a bit too constrictive, because it rules out more "creative" forms of torture like sleep deprivation. I think that if you eliminate the qualifier "physical" from the definition, you get a closer picture of what we're talking about.

I'm also seeing a lot of people talking about past instances of torture, in discussing whether torture is correct and in discussing whether what's happened here qualifies as torture. I think we need to remember that past cases of torture can't alter what torture is. So discussing past instances of torture has no place in determining whether this instance really was torture. I'm not saying you can't talk about it for other reasons, but you can't let it alter your perception of it.

That being said, this instance, in my eyes, absolutely qualifies as torture. To deny this is to deny the anguish that these detainees experience when these act of depravity are committed. While the prospect of scantily-clad women tantalizing me doesn't really strike fear to my heart, that fact has no significance in determining someone else's impression of it.

I've also heard people justifying torture as if it were something to find justification for. We're the United States of freakin' America. Doesn't torture embody all that we despise? I find it so boggling that the same people who strive to defend liberty are the same ones trying to find justifications for horrifying it.

[BadBoyBenny]

Foregoing the lap dance for the muslim torture room

[QuadsOverQuads]

I would just like to add that there are really two questions here:

(1) "Is torture justified?" (the title of this thread)

(2) does the whole "scantily clad women" thing constitute "torture"?

I just want to be clear here:

As to (1), the answer is an EMPHATIC "no". This is not a matter of debate as far as I'm concerned, nor should it ever be. Torture is off limits, always, period. To adopt any other position is to adopt the position of tyrants, making one's cause de facto illegitimate.

As to (2), I think this story is a pre-emptive PR strike being put out to preemptively discredit the very real evidence of torture that is going to come out now that Guantanamo "detainees" are slowly being released (notably the British citizens that were just let go, after being held for more than two years without charge or trial). If the Bush people can convince us to preemptively associate claims of "torture" with images of "scantily clad women", then the potential outrage of the charges is contained and mostly defused. This is NOT accidental. These are seasoned propagandists, and they know PRECISELY what they are doing. It's the same game they're playing when they quietly slip $250,000 to a "conservative" columnist in exchange for getting their PR talking points put into the paper by a supposedly "independent" source. These people know how to manipulate press coverage to advance their agenda, and they do it shamelessly and aggressively. The fact that people here are already locked in this ridiculous debate over whether "miniskirts" are a form of "torture" is evidence of just how effective their PR machine is. Mark my words: when the truth about Guantanamo comes out, we'll be discussing "torture" in real-world terms. In just the past two weeks, there was a report of a mass-suicide attempt by 23 prisoners there. That's not because of miniskirts. That's because of horrendous conditions that cause prisoners -- en masse -- to seek their own deaths. When the truth comes out (and it will, which is why the Bush PR offensive is starting NOW), people who have defended state torture -- be it at Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib, or anywhere else -- will have to bear the shame of their actions for a long, long time.


q/q

[MMMMMM]

[ QUOTE ]
I dunno man, I'll never know for sure unless I talk to this Muslim prisoner, but I can't think of many things that I could put him through that are worse than convincing him his connection with god is severed.

[/ QUOTE ]

How about that AND physical torture? That would certainly be worse.

We cannot be responsible for others' delusions.

Also: if he is using "his connection to God" as a prime cause for committing terrorist acts against others, then it is better that his relationship to God is severed.

[Wake up CALL]

Man wrote:

[ QUOTE ]
I think that if you eliminate the qualifier "physical" from the definition, you get a closer picture of what we're talking about.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice that you get to choose your own defintions. How about if we redefine the word man to mean an incoherent nincompoop?

[lastchance]

Definition of torture (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Torture).

If torture is simply physical, there are interrogation techniques which aren't torture that would be illegal and also not justified. If one can create mental anguish, and one can, oftentimes, cause severe psychological damage. This happens in many, many kidnappings of young children.

[Utah]

Are you kidding me? I had to pay $10 a song last time I got tortured like that.

[jimdmcevoy]

[ QUOTE ]

We cannot be responsible for others' delusions.


[/ QUOTE ]

Ah right, so you're taking the good old, "Well his beliefs are wrong, therefore they don't matter" approach.

How American.

[ QUOTE ]

How about that AND physical torture? That would certainly be worse.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes I concede that worse things can be done too him. But is your logic, "well it could be worse, so it's ok" ?

So only doing the absolute worst to him is wrong and everything else is ok?

[ QUOTE ]

if he is using "his connection to God" as a prime cause for committing terrorist acts against others, then it is better that his relationship to God is severed.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah maybe, I've thought the same about Bush.

[jimdmcevoy]

Just to clarify, MMMM brought it to my attention that torture is defined to not include mental stress.

But this was just a miscommunication on my part, I didn't know the correct deffinition of torture. If I could change my title, I would call it, "Are these interrogation tactics justified?" as that is what I meant.

[Kevin J]

I'm not sure if the content in this article crosses the line or not. But one thing I'm sure of is that you're definition of *torture* is different than mine.

Have you ever seen torture? In my younger days, I've had cops pull worse stuff than this on me.

[jimdmcevoy]

Please elighten me, I have never heard of abu graib.

[MMMMMM]

Terrorists/jihadists try to kill innocent Westerners, and you are worried about trampling on their cherished delusions.

Also, your comparison with Bush is silly, and I suspect you know it is an exaggerration at least.

You have also repeatedly taken statements I have made (in this sub-thread) and asked whether that means my logic is (insert some silly extrapolation or moronic reason). NO...when I state something, THAT is what I am saying, not something that is not even necessarily implied. Quit looking behind imaginary doors.

Overall I am now sorry to conclude (perhaps a bit too hastily, but I'm a busy man these days) that discussing things with you will likely be more futile than discussing them with Cyrus. If I'm judging you too soon on this, sorry. It appears your discussions and thinking are overly emotion-driven. Hope I'm wrong on this but people thinking with their emotions instead of their brains is pretty common in politics. At any rate please do have a good life. Thanks for your time.

[MMMMMM]

[ QUOTE ]
Man wrote:

Quote:
I think that if you eliminate the qualifier "physical" from the definition, you get a closer picture of what we're talking about.


Nice that you get to choose your own defintions. How about if we redefine the word man to mean an incoherent nincompoop?


[/ QUOTE ]


Wake UP Call, you clearly belong right around the top of that short list of the Most Intelligent Frequent Posters On The Politics Forum which I posted in another thread. Don't know how I missed it.

[jimdmcevoy]

You assume he's a terrorist/jihadist?

Well anyway, if you don't have the time then I guess that's that.

[MMMMMM]

Yes I do assume he is very likely a terrorist/jihadist, and was probably captured in Afghanistan amongst his ta.iban/al Qaeda cronies..

Also, sorry for the tone. I just took exception to your questions extending my statements beyond what I had written.

[jimdmcevoy]

[ QUOTE ]

Also, sorry for the tone. I just took exception to your questions extending my statements beyond what I had written.


[/ QUOTE ]

No worries, it's just that you seem to make statements that have no direct connection to the subject, so I try to guess what you are implying.

[Felix_Nietsche]

Rubbing red ink on someone's face and telling them it is blood is not torture..... I call it head games.

Playing head games with prisoners, to encourage them to cooperate is OK with me. Many of these prisoners are responsible carry out brutal attrocities under the Taliban regime. One of the prisioners who the USA released, due to lack of evidence, murdered six Chinese road workers when he returned to Pakistan. Maybe if they rubbed some ink on his face, those 6 China men would still be alive.

If one starts crying because they rub ink on his face. Two words come to mind. F***ing P***y.

[jimdmcevoy]

[ QUOTE ]

Many of these prisoners are responsible carry out brutal attrocities under the Taliban regime.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm just curious here, how many? And what is your source?