2 big hands folded flop or pf. am i being a puss?

[maldini]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP1 ($14.25)
MP2 ($18.65)
MP3 ($11.65)
CO ($24.45)
Button ($23.95)
Hero ($24.75)
BB ($13.25)
UTG ($7.50)
UTG+1 ($9.85)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. MP3 posts a blind of $0.25.
UTG calls $0.25, UTG+1 folds, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises to $1</font>, MP2 folds, MP3 (poster) folds, CO folds, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to $2</font>, Hero calls $1.90, BB folds, UTG folds, MP1 calls $1.

Flop: ($6.75) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets $2</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to $8</font>, Hero folds, MP1 folds.

Final Pot: $16.75


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Button ($5.05)
SB ($11.45)
BB ($4.05)
UTG ($11.35)
UTG+1 ($4.05)
Hero ($6.60)
MP2 ($4.45)
MP3 ($11.20)
CO ($9.45)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls $0.10, UTG+1 calls $0.10, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $0.5</font>, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button calls $0.50, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls $0.40, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises to $4.05</font>, Hero folds, Button folds, UTG folds.

Final Pot: $5.70
<font color="#009B00">Main Pot: $2.15, won by UTG+1.</font>
<font color="#009B00">Pot 2: $3.55, returned to UTG+1.</font>

Neither one of these seemed worth it considering how soft the game is. am i losing significant +EV or just avoiding variance? What would yall do?

[djoyce003]

Hand 1 - I'd raise way more with the kings preflop.

I'd call the bet in hand 2 and see what develops on the flop. The only hand that has you crushed is aces here, and to a lesser extent kings.

[Kaz The Original]

Why, oh why, dear god why, did you not raise preflop in hand #1.

That given, why, oh dear god why, did you not put some money in on the flop?

[amoeba]

Hand 2 is good.

Hand 1. aim to get your money in preflop with KK. you will meet AA occasionally but most of the time you don't at this level.

[maldini]

i may have just been in a non gambling mood. i normally dont have to gamble at these levels. if i'm patient people will just give me money. i probably should have here though. i definitely should have reraised preflop.

[suspicious_mind]

Hand 1: reraise preflop, sure someone could have aces but they could also have AJ, TT etc, just calling here doesn't really give you any information, and you are likely good so you should be getting more money in.

On the flop I'm putting MP on a medium pocket pair or he was making a raise with something like A8s or 89s or possibly AK.
I'm putting the button on a high pocket pair, probably about JJ or better. You could be beat here against a set or AA but your just as likely to be in front so get some money in there.

Hand 2: I like how you played this hand, your opponent limps in and then moves in on you, he should have a big pocket pair here even at this level. Only thing that might make me want to call is that he is short stacked in a 10$ NL game so he might just be gambling it up, he will usually have atleast a pocket pair though.

[jbrock]

The second hand is a fine fold. I would have done the same.

The first hand, however, is inconsistent. Generally people will pop that reraise preflop, but that screams KK or AA. You can make the case for smooth calling for deceptive value. This probably should be done infrequently (25%? less?). However, when you do that, you ARE gambling as you have to be willing to push it on a nonthreating flop which this is. The price you pay for deceptive value is less information about other people's hands. I would check-raise this allin given how the preflop was played. I would put MP on TT-QQ given the reraise. I would think a set of 8's would be rather unlikely. I would play it exactly as MP did if I had jacks. MP will not put you on KK or AA since you smooth called preflop. Ironically, if MP is good, he may fold AA to the push since he might put you on a set. It is much easier to think this through afterwards with some time, but that is what posting and reading these threads is for.

[TheWorstPlayer]

You threw away a lot of money on the first hand. Re-raise preflop and push that flop. Damn, it makes me cringe to see you drop the winner on that nice pot. Hand 2 is fine, but player dependent. Against some opponents I call, against some I fold, against some I push.

[soah]

I've spent some time thinking about the first hand and I'm not convinced that your play was completely wrong. MP1 made a pretty standard raise and the button came over the top for an amount that he knows will get called. Unless he is loony, he must have a premium hand there. He could do that with AA. Would he do that with QQ or AK? Possibly. I wouldn't expect to see less than QQ very often. Your KK is not a huge favorite against that range of hands. Folding preflop is too weak because you are getting marginally decent odds to draw at a set, and from the flop action you may be able to make a better determination of what hands you are up against. When the flop comes down and button raises MP1 a second time you can be pretty certain you're facing a big pair. That big pair will not always be AA, but it will be frequently. You are out of position and the pot isn't big yet. In the long run I think you are giving up little or no equity by folding in this situation.

There are certainly some specific opponents that you should never fold against here, but since no reads were given I'm assuming the button was decent and not tricky.

[maldini]

i feel pretty bad about the KK in retrospect. i just had a bad feeling. i may have just been lamenting that i have never had KK vs AA since i've started playing these cash games. if i had a couple of minutes vs. 30 seconds and 2 other tables going i probably would have pushed preflop.

turns out the guy to my right was ultra aggressive both pre and post flop. i hadnt been at the table long when this hand came up.

[TheWorstPlayer]

Soah, you really put his range of hands that tight with a MIN re-raise? I have seen so many people min-reraise with:
any pocket pair
AK
KJo (I pushed and lost, of course, with AA /images/graemlins/tongue.gif)
suited connectors
some others, too, I think.

I just really can't see folding KK here as being +EV. You are behind exactly one hand. Don't you think it is giving too much credit to assume that hand is the one Villain has?

[soah]

I've never played .10/.25 at Stars so I don't know how a typical opponent plays. Going by what I do know about Stars in general and small stakes in general (ie, from watching full ring at party), players are fairly weak and passive. Those aren't the types of players that are going to three-bet preflop without a premium hand.

And as I said in my post, if you call preflop you can check and watch the flop action to get a better idea of where your opponents stand. Would the button really raise the flop with just overcards? If a typical Stars player would play KJo that way then I need to seriously change my views on how tough the competition is there. Maybe we should send in theredpill to give us a report.

[TheWorstPlayer]

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I have never played at Stars, so my comment was from Party which is certainly not necessarily transferable. However, for the preflop play to be correct you have to assume villain has AA and AA only. I think that is not a good assumption. I would just re-raise to $7 and if he pushes I can think about laying down. And how would you play that flop, if you were villain, with QQ, JJ, etc? I might even play it the way he did with AK (although my flop re-raise would be bigger in all of those cases, of course).

[JaBlue]

The toughness of opponents depends much more on limit than site.

[soah]

Just because you think you have the best hand doesn't mean that raising is automatically the correct play. C+R say it is a mistake to fourbet preflop with KK and QQ. That may not apply completely to games where people are not thinking at the third level, but even bad players have got to respect a fourbet from the blinds. If I think button would threebet liberally and I'm comfortable going to the felt, then I would prefer to call preflop and checkraise the flop or something.

[soah]

[ QUOTE ]
The toughness of opponents depends much more on limit than site.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is completely untrue.

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
C+R say it is a mistake to fourbet preflop with KK and QQ. ... I would prefer to call preflop and checkraise the flop or something.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is 100% the way I play it. When I have raised initially. In this case, however, the initial raise did not come from me so it is not going to be heads up and you are going to be seen as someone who has cold-called a re-raise anyways so I think there is no less clarity to your holding anyways. The hand range of someone who raises and then calls a re-raise is much wider than that of someone who cold-calls a re-raise. I think the hand range of someone who cold-calls a re-raise is essentially identical to that of someone who puts in that fourth bet that C+R are talking about. Therefore, since you still don't have the advantage of maintaining a wide hand range, you should re-reraise for value.