JJ. something different

[sublime]

No read on main villian. of course i fold to turn 3-bet

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls, CO <font color="#A500AF">(SLP-very passive)</font> calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls, BB <font color="#A500AF">(unknown)</font> calls, MP calls, CO <font color="#A500AF">(SLP-very passive)</font> calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">unknown bets</font>, MP calls, SLP-very passive calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB folds, <font color="#CC3333">unknown 3-bets</font>, MP folds, SLP-very passive calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (10 BB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">unknown bets</font>, SLP-very passive folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, unknown calls.

River: (14 BB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">unknown bets</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 15 BB

[Alobar]

I call. I think hell show you 88 or 67 or his overplayed busted flush/straight draw, 1 time in 15

[ggbman]

I think this is an insane fold in a pot this big. Crazy... you dont think your good 1 in 15 times?

[sublime]

I think this is an insane fold in a pot this big. Crazy... you dont think your good 1 in 15 times?

the way the hand was played? doubtfull.

villian turned over 77 for some reason. i still think that looking at the hand and how it played out i made a fold that was reasonable.

EDIT: had the board not paired, i think a river fold is pretty damn easy. the board pairing made it thought provoking, but with the action i put in here, a bet by the villian means i am beat a very large % of the time.

fortunatly i am almost never in spots like this, as i have a workable read on almost all of my opponents.

[djoyce003]

I think you made a terrible fold here. Unless he's terrible, his most likely hand here is a flush draw, a straight draw, an overpair, or two pair, with 76 being the most likely of those. That river four most likely counterfeited his two pair, or he missed his straight/flush and took a shot at betting at you to get you to fold, which I can't believe worked here. I would never fold with a hand like this in a 15 BB pot for 1 more bet on the river. I think you should have raised.

[sublime]

I think you should have raised

i think raising is bad. on the norm folding is also. i have re-read the hand a few times and i agree that folding here on a normal basis is not +EV. fortuantly i lucked out in this spot. believe me, folding on the river for one bet is something i almost never do (with a decent hand)

[MAxx]

if villain checks river, you check too?

looked like you were trying for a "free showdown". you didnt get it, so you split. if you got 3bet on turn, you were letting go right? villains' river lead is similar to a turn cap.

i have real hard time beleiving your hand would be good, after all that aggression you showed and villains resilience. people keep pointing out 1 in 15... i dont know.

the point of the turn raise is to focus all your remaining might on protecting if you are ahead plus potential fold equity. This has the effect of expediting the issue. It is more powerful than a turn call followed by a river call which seems like the alternative. This seems like a final effort.

This can be a good play, imo... but i would be hesitant to overuse it. i certainly would not want to show it twice during the same table session against opponents who can see what i am doing, as you can see... it is exploitable.

i would tend to use this play against a player with a pretty decent read. not so sure about the turn raise against an unknown. i think i would probably have called turn, called river.

[BottlesOf]

I think this is like the Dude's hand and I don't like folding to these random river bets. I mean, you're probably behind, but behind enough?

When I start playing with good players I'm gonna throw in random river bets and see if they fold.

[sublime]

When I start playing with good players I'm gonna throw in random river bets and see if they fold.

i played a large amount in vegas this past week (mostly 20/40 at the miarge), which probably led to me folding here. i dont make folds like this online, like ever. all that live-play prolly infected my mind. i belive i made a mistake by folding the river (although in reality i didnt as villain did show 77) although if the river had been a blank and villian bet, i believe a fold is the superior play.

[sublime]

Anybody but NE

i still dont get this. why dont you like the pats? in all seriousness, i would root for the Jets in the super bowl. they ont have any "hateable" players.

[Shakespeare]

Why is there not flop cap? If a flop cap is not a good play, please let me know why so I can stop doing it.

[Shakespeare]

Is it because he is unknown and/or in the BB?

[BottlesOf]

web page (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Number=1610281&amp;page=&amp;view=&amp;s b=5&amp;o=&amp;vc=1)

[J.R.]

The lack of a cap probably has more to do with being able to wait for a favorable turn card on this draw heavy board to raise in order maximize hero's equity in the bets that go into the pot. Nobody folds to the flop cap and hero's equity edge may be quite small if he is ahead and a bad card could turn.

[Shakespeare]

Ok, I admit the following is a very minor consideration. After your fold he is still unknown so an added plus to calling would be to find out what he calls a raise with, etc /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[sublime]

The lack of a cap probably has more to do with being able to wait for a favorable turn card on this draw heavy board to raise in order maximize hero's equity in the bets that go into the pot. Nobody folds to the flop cap and hero's equity edge may be quite small if he is ahead and a bad card could turn.

that and the manner in which villian played the flop means i am behind a decent amount of time. as seen, i planned on raising a *scare* card and playing it from there.

[J.R.]

I have only dabbled in 10-20 so you think you get a fold often enough if you raise a "scare" card on the turn, and other than an A, what else did you consider to be a a scary turn card you would raise, a dimaond?

[sublime]

I have only dabbled in 10-20 so you think you get a fold often enough if you raise a "scare" card on the turn, and other than an A, what else did you consider to be a a scary turn card you would raise, a dimaond?

basically any paint i guess, maybe a T. a diamond scares *me*, but i would probably pop one of those also. the raise i suppose isnt meant to fold a better hand (i cant see one folding here as a higher overpair is very unlikely) but slow down a worse one(or one drawing) or allow me to fold to a better one.

EDIT: although against a very aggressive player i could be making an incorrect fold on the turn. the more i look at this, the more i think just calling the turn and river is probably the better route.

[Trix]

Call, I´m sure you will get surprised by something weird often enough.

[sublime]

Call, I´m sure you will get surprised by something weird often enough

i agree. whats you plan on the turn (see my chat with JR)

[ggbman]

[ QUOTE ]
I think this is an insane fold in a pot this big. Crazy... you dont think your good 1 in 15 times?

the way the hand was played? doubtfull.

villian turned over 77 for some reason. i still think that looking at the hand and how it played out i made a fold that was reasonable.

EDIT: had the board not paired, i think a river fold is pretty damn easy. the board pairing made it thought provoking, but with the action i put in here, a bet by the villian means i am beat a very large % of the time.

fortunatly i am almost never in spots like this, as i have a workable read on almost all of my opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, a few things here. Obviously in this particular case, folding was correct. But you said you are against an unknown for whom yo have no reads. If this is the case, you cannot assume him to have as good a thought process as you do. You still maintain that he doesn't turn over a hand like:

K7
5x
Flush Draw
67
87
65
75
55
88
99
TT

One in 15 times? I don't agree. I think he has one of these hands much more often. Maybe he had a pair and a flush. I think in the long run you lose a lot of money folding here.

[sublime]

One in 15 times? I don't agree. I think he has one of these hands much more often. Maybe he had a pair and a flush. I think in the long run you lose a lot of money folding here.

i agree that folding was the "wrong" decision. thanks for your input /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ggbman]

It was an intersting hand, i had fun thinking about it. By the way, i hate the patriots because they win too much, it's much more fun to root for an underdog. Why even watch the game when you know Brady will [censored] a pass out of his ass to win it with 2 ticks left?

[Joe826]

i think the turn play is ok since the board is draw heavy and you may actually get QQ or KK to fold in some spots. this river bet seems pretty random on his part and while the range of hands he could have is wide, a bluff is certainly among them. i don't know why i'm restating this again heh.