Sorry, I was, um, sick.

[Gamblor]

UN marks 60th anniversary of Nazi death camps' liberation (http://www.freep.com/news/nw/holocaust25e_20050125.htm)

The commemoration also was meant to eradicate the notion that the UN General Assembly is anti-Semitic, an accusation frequently made by Israel.

But there were signs of division and clear evidence that much of the Arab world was not participating. The General Assembly auditorium was less than half full, and just one Middle East country -- Jordan -- was scheduled to deliver a speech commemorating the liberation of the camps.

[Benal]

Hope ya feelin' betta

[andyfox]

Hugh Hewitt had "Yoni" on his show today. Seems he's a frequent guest. He is going to run for the Knesset. One of the things Yoni said was that, as far as a Palestinian state goes, there is no way Israel should give up the land that was given to the Jews by "God almighty."

Anti-semitism is a disgusting, pestilential "thought" process, sickening and saddening.

So is the thought process that claims land as something given to one by God. History has shown us that such thinking leads to holocausts as surely as does anti-semitism.

[tek]

You mean the singer?

[EarlCat]

"God almighty" or not, why doesn't Israel gets to keep the land it conquered through military conquest (started, of course by their ever-so-peaceful enemies) just like every other square inch of land on this planet was acquired.

[Gamblor]

History has shown us that such thinking leads to holocausts as surely as does anti-semitism.

Care to remind me the last time Jews perpetrated a mass murder campaign?

(If current events come up this thread is over and you can charge me for war crimes right here)

[Victor]

care to remind when god gave the land to the jews?

[andyfox]

I didn't say the Jews did. A good example would be the English settlers in New England.

Let me make my point explicit: You are always finding fault with the Palestinian Arabs and never finding fault with the Jewish State. There is plenty of fault to go around on both sides. The Zionists felt, to a greater or lesser degree depending on which Zionist we're talking about, that Eretz Israel was their God-given heritage. To deny that this thinking has contributed to the sorry history of the last one hundred years is to deny reality. While I agree with the sentiment that the Palestinians never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity, this thinking was an important element contributing to the loss of their homeland.

[andyfox]

I don't care if Israel keeps the land or not. I would think Israelis who want peace would, though. The attitude that the land is theirs by virtue of their relationship with God is an important element in their valuation of that land.

[Victor]

[ QUOTE ]
The attitude that the land is theirs by virtue of their relationship with God is an important element in their valuation of that land.

[/ QUOTE ]

kinda like the americans in the early days. what did that lead to? the most effecive, most efficient, and least accountable genocide in thousands of years.

[Broken Glass Can]

[ QUOTE ]

kinda like the americans in the early days. what did that lead to? the most effecive, most efficient, and least accountable genocide in thousands of years.

[/ QUOTE ]

There was no genocide in the US. There were isolated massacres on both sides usually during a war, but you overstate the case to say genocide. If you disagree, provide concrete examples.

[Victor]

[ QUOTE ]
but you overstate the case to say genocide If you disagree, provide concrete examples.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do not want to argue over the semantics of the word genocide. There is clear evidence that the natives lived here in numbers and varieties. Now many tribes no longer exist and the their entire population is exponentially more sparse. I am not going to dig up research on such an obvious evolution.

[Broken Glass Can]

[ QUOTE ]
Now many tribes no longer exist and the their entire population is exponentially more sparse. I am not going to dig up research on such an obvious evolution.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is largely what trips people up on this issue. People forget that in 400 years demographics can have dramatic effects.

If 10% of each generation of indians intermarried with the neighboring whites... the tribe disappears.

If the birth rate is below replacement level... the tribe disappears.

Over centuries of time, the descendants of the original indians were intermixed and absorbed and so forth. This is quite different from genocide. Please don't jump to conclusions about our history by comparing 400 years ago with today.

[Victor]

[ QUOTE ]
If 10% of each generation of indians intermarried with the neighboring whites... the tribe disappears.

If the birth rate is below replacement level... the tribe disappears.

[/ QUOTE ]

also if the government sponsors and participates in methodical campaigns to move onto their land and provide them with tainted blankets that amounts to biological warfare

[andyfox]

There was most certainly a genocide. I live in California and the native population at the time of Spanish settlement of over 300,000 was very nearly eliminated. [An excellent introduction is The Indians of California by John Rawls. Particulars from writtens accounts during the California gold rush are reprinted in Exterminate Them, Trafzer and Hyer, editors.] The English treatment of the Pequots and the Spanish treatment of the Acomas in New Mexico are cogent examples.

And if we define "America" as the western hemisphere, there are many examples from which to choose, beginning right at the beginning, with Columbus and Hispaniola, where at least a million natives were decimated by cruelty and disease.

[Zeno]

Article on Auschwitz (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2002163119_holocaust28.html)

[Gamblor]

I didn't even suggest anything of the sort.

But andyfox suggested that Jewish religious fervour would lead to an event on par with the WWII Holocaust.

I responded with the assertion that no matter how religious jews get, genocide vis-a-vis the Palestinians simply won't happen.

I don't understand what your response has to do with my assertion

[Gamblor]

You are always finding fault with the Palestinian Arabs and never finding fault with the Jewish State.

The faults of the Jewish state are political. It's democracy is sketchy, but still democracy. In Israel, the way you get anywhere is by connections, a job, an army transfer, anything. If you don't have connections, you don't get anything.

The bureaucracy is absolutely brutal. The Orthodox parties have too much power and hold the government hostage because no government gets a majority of votes.

No matter how powerful the Orthodox get, they will never advocate the genocide of the Palestinians. They may demand that all Arabs under PLO responsibility be exiled, but that is a response to decades of terrorism, not any innate racist behaviour.

Israeli Arabs are the same as the Spanish in America. Some "make it", but most are nannies, janitors, construction workers, etc. Low education and low income on average. But there are successful ones too in government, etc. and we have the same fights about equal rights as they do in the USA.

Except for one thing. Our "Spanish" strap bombs to themselves when they don't get their way. They grow up in a system where the Jew is pure evil, the enemy, is less than human. And it's so normal to them that the Jew is such a dog that the majority don't have any serious issue with mass murder of Jews. And that's why they don't show up at UN sessions about it, and that's also why the only semi-Westernized Arab country gave a speech.

You misunderstand the whole "god-given" position. There is no suggestion that God gave this land to Jews exclusively, but rather as a homeland for Jews. Anyone can live there in peace, but Jewish self-government is a right of the Jews, and so is having Eretz Yisrael as a homeland. Anyone else wants to use it as a homeland, set up your own government, do whatever, but we're not going to tolerate you killing us.