Why is QJs one of my worst performers?

[Fianchetto]

QJs is one of my biggest leaks and I’m trying to figure out why.

I open for a raise with it if I’m first in from MP or later. I’ll usually limp up front with it unless the game is real aggressive, and I will cold call 2 bets with it from any position if I can expect a multiway pot.

Hand#1

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">6 folds</font>, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (3 SB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (3 BB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Uggg.. I don’t like getting popped on the turn; I put BB on two pair or better, UTG on some kind of draw. I resolve to call the turn and fold the river unimproved.

River: (9 BB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, Hero folds, BB calls.

Okay, I improved but the J /images/graemlins/club.gif just completed flush draws, and straight draws. I planned to check and call one bet. Facing two cold on the river I was getting 6:1, so my hand has to be good about what 15% of the time, but what can I beat now that UTG came to life?

Comments on all streets appreciated.

================================================== ==
Hand#2

My main questions on this hand are on the early streets.

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (10.66 SB) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Button folds, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG caps</font>, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, BB calls.

What do you think of the flop raise? I have a gutshot to the nuts, two overcards, and a backdoor flush draw. Obviously I will be continuing, so I thought by raising rather than calling maybe I can clean up my Q or J outs, and give myself a free card on the turn. Didn’t quite work out that way…..

Turn: (13.33 BB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, Hero folds, BB folds, UTG calls.

Good fold? I put UTG+1 on a very strong hand, at least an overpair or maybe a set. I figured I had 4 clean outs if somebody doesn't already have a straight. However the pot was offering me a pretty good price if my two pair/trips outs are live.

Comments on all streets appreciated.

Results to follow.

[Kaz The Original]

Is cold calling that raise in hand #2 standard practice?

[astroglide]

[ QUOTE ]
and I will cold call 2 bets with it from any position if I can expect a multiway pot

[/ QUOTE ]

[Kaz The Original]

Not to repeat myself, and I understand he will do that, is this standard operating procedure?

(I am not saying it is bad, merely curious).

[Fianchetto]

For me, yes. How bad is that?

The game was getting some multiway pots, so I expected others to come in behind me as well, and they did, we got 5-way action.

looking at twodimes with some reasonable hands, QJs wins more than it's fair share:


Holdem Hi: 850668 enumerated boards

cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV

Qs Js 217785 25.60 630531 74.12 2352 0.28 0.257
9c Kd 53109 6.24 790892 92.97 6667 0.78 0.066
Ks Ac 200340 23.55 643661 75.67 6667 0.78 0.239
Tc Td 209011 24.57 639305 75.15 2352 0.28 0.246
6s 6d 163756 19.25 684560 80.47 2352 0.28 0.193

[Kaz The Original]

Change it ever so slightly :
Qs Js 129074 15.17 714867 84.04 6727 0.79 0.155
9c Kd 159779 18.78 689854 81.10 1035 0.12 0.188
As Qh 191021 22.46 652920 76.75 6727 0.79 0.228
Ts Th 203639 23.94 645994 75.94 1035 0.12 0.240
6s 6d 160428 18.86 689205 81.02 1035 0.12 0.189

Not saying it is good or bad, once again, merely curious.

[astroglide]

it's incredibly easy to get into payoff situations with QJs, and if you cold call often enough to make it worth mentioning "when you expect multi-way action" you are probably doing it too much when you're playing loose. also, the example of 5 other hands you gave has nobody else holding a queen or a pair higher than tens, two people are holding a king, and only 2 spades are accounted for. plus it's hot and cold.

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]

looking at twodimes with some reasonable hands, QJs wins more than it's fair share:


[/ QUOTE ]
You have conveniently selected a set of hands where none of them have you dominated. Change UTG+1's hand to AA and see what happens. Should we make all of our preflop decisions by assuming that anyone who raises has AA? Of course not. But domination is a real threat here, so making decisions purely based on scenarios where you are not dominated is also inaccurate.

But that isn't even the biggest problem with these twodimes numbers, in my opinion. The problem is just that making preflop decisions based on these numbers at all is a poor idea. They can he somewhat helpful, but they certainly aren't sufficient to show that this a good preflop call. The fact that you may win more than your fair share means that you are making a slight profit on the money that goes in preflop. Maybe. But there is a lot more to the game than preflop, so the small edge you have on the first betting round (if you even have one here) can easily be outweighed by how often you are going to get stuck putting in money postflop in terrrible situations. Postflop you are going to often have no idea where you are, plus you are going to have players to act behind you (or so you assume). There is more than enough badness there with QJ to outweigh the small edge you have preflop in the average case. I think that these hot-and-cold numbers can be somewhat useful in deciding whether you want to raise with a hand that you are playing anyway, but are much less useful in deciding whether to play in the first place.

FWIW, other than the preflop call on the second hand, I think you played them both fine.

[AviD]

I think astro is indicating this is a leak in cold calling with QJs.

^ already stated in other respones (EDIT)

[Kaz The Original]

oh /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[pudley4]

[ QUOTE ]
For me, yes. How bad is that?

The game was getting some multiway pots, so I expected others to come in behind me as well, and they did, we got 5-way action.

looking at twodimes with some reasonable hands, QJs wins more than it's fair share:


Holdem Hi: 850668 enumerated boards

cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV

Qs Js 217785 25.60 630531 74.12 2352 0.28 0.257
9c Kd 53109 6.24 790892 92.97 6667 0.78 0.066
Ks Ac 200340 23.55 643661 75.67 6667 0.78 0.239
Tc Td 209011 24.57 639305 75.15 2352 0.28 0.246
6s 6d 163756 19.25 684560 80.47 2352 0.28 0.193

[/ QUOTE ]

One of the biggest problems with being the first caller after the raise is your relative position. Your hand is very likely behind preflop, and most of your best flops are a draw. However since you will be acting directly after the preflop raiser, you won't be able to pump up the pot (because you're risking shutting out all the other players), so one of your biggest money-making tools is taken away from you.

[amulet]

most players know that QJo is trash and in general should not be played unless it is folded to you in late position, and then you raise IF you think you can steal the blinds. and as we know being suited is a slight improvement, but not too much. therefore, QJs is an ok hand at best. i have found that i either play it in late or sometimes middle position after i know the pot will be multiway. otherwise i do not play it.

[SA125]

Compare it to QJo. You'll rarely, if ever, call 2 cold with it. So you justify calling with it based on it's flush power, which hits less than 10% of the time. The time it hits TP, or a piece of the flop, is a lot more than that.

The frequency it's dominated by the raiser is fairly often. A hand that can cost you a lot of money if you stay with it for more than the reason you called with it.

[bicyclekick]

Read this thread. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=smallholdem&amp;Number=862129&amp; fpart=&amp;PHPSESSID=)

Also I agree you're probably cold-calling with it too much.

[Fianchetto]

Touché!

All right guys, looking again at twodimes, yes, being in a dominated situation or against an overpair will cripple my pot equity. I’m still trying to determine if it is worth that risk when entering a raised pot with QJs, sounds like no since I may also make a lot of second best hands.

If it as simple as “Stop cold calling raises with QJs”, great! I can fix that today.

So everybody is okay with my postflop play in the hands?

[Michael Davis]

How many hands do you have? Especially because suited hands don't come around that often, it takes forever for these things to even themselves out.

But yeah, just to echo what others are saying, it sounds like you're coldcalling too much.

-Michael

[Fianchetto]

[ QUOTE ]
How many hands do you have? Especially because suited hands don't come around that often, it takes forever for these things to even themselves out.


[/ QUOTE ]

I have ~80K hands of party $15/$30, dealt QJs ~240 times. My CCPF (cold call preflop %) with it is ~12%, tied with med/small pairs for the highest in my database.

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]
My CCPF (cold call preflop %) with it is ~12%, tied with med/small pairs for the highest in my database.

[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry if I'm beating a dead horse here, but I would cold call more with medium pairs than with suited connectors like this one because even if you are in a similar situation hot-and-cold, the pairs are often easier to play postflop so your actual results tend to be better.

[Tyler Durden]

[ QUOTE ]

QJs is one of my biggest leaks and I’m trying to figure out why.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
and I will cold call 2 bets with it from any position if I can expect a multiway pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner.

Your coldcall in hand 2 is pretty atrocious, plus it could get 3bet and capped before it comes back to you and you're stuck on the installment plan.

[kowboy]

IMO, in middle position calling two cold with this hand is unprofitable no matter what. Dumping money into the pot when you may have to make really tricky decisions post-flop isnt fun. With this hand you will almost always have to make a close decision. AK,AQ,AJ,KJ, your in bad shape and your behind on any pair. Even with flop like Q,8,4, you cant really like. Any of your cards that have top pair stinks most the time because people are coming in to a raise which may mean they have you dominated and your forced to put in more money on a marginal holding. You have third nut flush draw but you make your flush 4in 1 and you still may not win if your up agains Ax suited. This hand IMO works well in late position or blinds with lots of limpers when you have for sure odds and no one shows strength so if your lone Q comes up you have a good shot at having the best hand. /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[kanijima]

interestingly enough, QJs is one of my best performers. i've earned more with QJs than KJs or 99. then again i suppose it could be due to just running good with this hand.

here are some things i do differently from you:

1. fold QJs in EP
2. fold QJs in MP if folded to
3. only cold-call if you know for sure there are 3 or more people in the pot with you (not including the blinds). the pot needs to be very multi-way for your hand to have any chance against being potentially dominated. being 3 or 4 handed isn't enough.

the thing you must realize about QJs is that it is a marginal hand at best. raising first-in from MP is one of the worst things you can do with a marginal hand. with a good number of people to act behind you, QJs will not statistically be the best hand often enough for you to show a long term profit. in lower limit games, i'd advocate you to open-limp from EP or MP, but at the party 15 i believe you're too likely to run into someone raising to try to isolate you with (probably) a better hand. you don't want to invest too many bets with a marginal hand; you want to try to get in cheap and flop a big draw, or hit your pair in an unraised pot. hitting one of your cards for a pair in a raised pot is one of the worst situations you can be in. again, QJs = marginal hand. play it like one.

[bicyclekick]

[ QUOTE ]
interestingly enough, QJs is one of my best performers. i've earned more with QJs than KJs or 99. then again i suppose it could be due to just running good with this hand.

here are some things i do differently from you:

1. fold QJs in EP
2. fold QJs in MP if folded to
3. only cold-call if you know for sure there are 3 or more people in the pot with you (not including the blinds). the pot needs to be very multi-way for your hand to have any chance against being potentially dominated. being 3 or 4 handed isn't enough.

the thing you must realize about QJs is that it is a marginal hand at best. raising first-in from MP is one of the worst things you can do with a marginal hand. with a good number of people to act behind you, QJs will not statistically be the best hand often enough for you to show a long term profit. in lower limit games, i'd advocate you to open-limp from EP or MP, but at the party 15 i believe you're too likely to run into someone raising to try to isolate you with (probably) a better hand. you don't want to invest too many bets with a marginal hand; you want to try to get in cheap and flop a big draw, or hit your pair in an unraised pot. hitting one of your cards for a pair in a raised pot is one of the worst situations you can be in. again, QJs = marginal hand. play it like one.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you are under-playign your hand. QJs in MP if folded to is an easy raise and I also think you should be playing it in EP at the party 15/30. I didn't used to either but was convinced long ago by some top posters.

[kanijima]

after seeing my statistics from poker tracker i was convinced that QJs is not profitable from EP. however, if you believe it is, you go ahead and play it. i'm just stating my own opinion based on the results i've personally seen. hearing "top posters" tell me to play QJs in EP isn't enough. i look at stats, not what posters say. frankly, i'm convinced that QJs just isn't +EV from EP.

[fsuplayer]

thanks for the great link BK.

[TStoneMBD]

i agree that you are probably calling 2 cold far too often.

[AceHigh]

[ QUOTE ]
If it as simple as “Stop cold calling raises with QJs”, great! I can fix that today.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep. Limit cold calls to late postion when you know you are getting multiway action.

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If it as simple as “Stop cold calling raises with QJs”, great! I can fix that today.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep. Limit cold calls to late postion when you know you are getting multiway action.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree. I think the problem with Fianchetto's current strategy is that he isn't considering his position. He is treating calling in mid pos when you expect two people to call behind you as being the same as calling on the button after those two have called. Even disregarding the fact that your expectation about them calling might be wrong, you can't call in the first spot because you are going to be in poor position for the rest of the hand with a difficult hand that really suffers for it.

[Vince Lepore]

What do you mean by "one of your worst performers"? Do your results show that you are playing this starting hand to a -EV?

Vince

[TStoneMBD]

QJ s 0.17 0.07 0.15 0.11 0.16 0.30 0.13 0.20 0.34 0.23

http://www.pokerroom.com/games/evstats/positionStats.php?players=10

according to these charts, QJs is profitable from every position.

i know this cannot be correct, but i have never folded QJs for 1 bet in any position.

[Fianchetto]

[ QUOTE ]
What do you mean by "one of your worst performers"? Do your results show that you are playing this starting hand to a -EV?


[/ QUOTE ]

Over my last 50K hands I have been losing money with it, and I was trying to figure out why

[astroglide]

i have an 87% vpip with QJs and a much larger set of databases. it's a very profitable hand for me. really i think it's just the cold-calling.

[Fianchetto]

The discussion focused more on preflop play, but for those that are interested here are the results.

Hand#1

River: (9 BB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, Hero folds, BB calls.

Final Pot: 13 BB


BB has 7d Tc (two pair, tens and sevens).
UTG has Qh Ac (one pair, queens).
Outcome: BB wins 13 BB.

I mucked the winner. Why UTG waited for every draw to hit before he raised with his AQ is beyond me.

=====================================

Hand#2

River: (17.33 BB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, UTG+1 calls.

Final Pot: 19.33 BB


UTG has Kd 9c (one pair, nines).
UTG+1 has Kh Kc (one pair, kings).
Outcome: UTG+1 wins 19.33 BB.

[Vince Lepore]

Q,Js is a weak holding that requires good pot or implied odds to play. One should almost never call a raise with it in a tough or even a typical game. In a loose passive game one can call up front anicipating lots of callers and hopeully no raise. If in late position and there are lots of limpers you can raise but calling is better. J,Ts or K,Qs are better raising hands with lots of limpers.

Try not limping early or cold calling raises and then look at your results. Keep in mind though that most money at limit Holdem goes in after the flop so you may also want to look how you are handling one pair when you are in with this hand.

Vince

[brick]

QJs is a lot better than QJo in a 10 handed games where most pots are multi-way.

From pokerroom.com:
QJ -0.10 -0.11 -0.10 -0.08 -0.01 -0.10 0.03 -0.03 0.02 0.02
QJs 0.17 0.07 0.15 0.11 0.16 0.30 0.13 0.20 0.34 0.23