Weight training help...

[SGS]

I know there are some people on this forumn who lift pretty intensely so I am going to ask for their help. I have been lifting pretty often for about 6 months now roughly five days a week. I saw increases in everything but I am now beginning to pleteau. I know shocking your body is the best way to get more results again, but I am unsure how to change my workout to do this. Here is what I typically do.

Day 1- Chest/Bis
Bench (10,8,6,4)
Incline Dumbbell (3x8)
Decline Dumbbell (3x8)
Cable Flies (3x8)
Bicep Curls (3x8)
Cable Curls (3x8)
Preacher Curls (3x8)

Day 2- Back/Tris (everything is 3x8)
Lat pulls
I am unsure of the names but 3 more back exercises
Press downs
Press overs
Skull Crushers

Day 3- Legs/Shoulders
Squats (10,8,6,4)
Leg extensions (3x8)
Leg Curls (3x8)
Calf Raises (3x8)
Single leg squats (3x8)
Military press (10,8,6,4)
Upright Row (3x8)
Arnold Press (3x8)
Lateral Raises (3x8)

I then take a day of and start the cycle over. I am still trying to gain size and strength. I am just curious as the best way to change my workout to shock my body is. I was thinking maybe dropping to all 5 reps and doing 4 sets in everything? Not really sure. Thanks in advance for any help.

SGS

[BusterStacks]

ask Sup Bro

[Jman28]

[ QUOTE ]
I was thinking maybe dropping to all 5 reps and doing 4 sets in everything?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah. I'd try dropping to 4-5 reps. Three sets is fine though.

Maybe have a heavy day and a light day for each muscle group to change it up. But yeah, to get bigger, drop the reps and up the weight. You've been lifting long enough to be able to do this with little injury risk.

Also, I don't have any idea of your beliefs or methods but creatine is an effective muscle builder and is, from my understanding, fairly risk free if used correctly (drink lots of water and don't take more than you should). It depends on your reasons for lifting.

Creatine is not good for your aerobic abilities, as it promotes anaerobic respiration (if that's a thing).

But yeah, what is your purpose of lifting? Athletics? Looks? General Strength?

Please note that I am not an expert of any sort.

-Jman28

[Scotch78]

As a general rule (I'm sure there are some exceptions), doing the same weight and target reps for multiple sets isn't a good way to build mass or power. You are either struggling on the last set and using poor form or not pushing your muscles on the first set. My basic routine is 12/9/7/5 reps for upper body and 15/12/10/8 for legs. It's worked well for me but isn't really a mass/power routine, so it might not be what you want. A few things that I would suggest are changing all of your exercises. It can be as simple as switching from barbells to dumbbells, but if you've been doing the same exercise for more than about six weeks, you really should change. Also, I like to make my last set of every exercise drop-offs and/or randomly add a couple of 2.5lb plates to one set. Lastly, try concentrating very ####### your form, particularly taking it slowly (4 seconds) on the negative side. Oh, and doing a full workout three days in a row with only one day off is too much unless you eat and sleep a ton. Our bodies don't get stronger when we workout, they grow when we're sleeping.

Scott

[DBowling]

http://www.wannabebigforums.com/

[Bluffoon]

Don't neglect your diet. Eat a lot of protein. Natural sources are best but a supplement like Myoplex works well.
If your body doesn't have the fuel nothing is going to happen.

Break your workout into one bodypart per day. Something like this works well:

Day 1 Legs
Day 2 Shoulders
Day 3 Back
Day 4 Chest
Day 5 Arms
Day 6 Rest

You are doing squats which is good. Deadlifts are killer. Start off your arm day with some deadlifts. Core strength is key. Stay away from the machines and isolation exercises.

Form is so important. Spend the money to work with a trainer for a few sessions and every few months have a session with them for a tune-up.

Experiment with sets and reps to see what works best for you. For me lighter wieght and higher reps works best. Maybe start your sets with a light weight at 15-18 reps and by the last set do 6-8.

I think the biggest mistake guys make in the gym is working out too heavy. Drop the weight. You will just hurt yourself and have to take time off.

Good luck!

[DBowling]

[ QUOTE ]
Break your workout into one bodypart per day. Something like this works well:

Day 1 Legs
Day 2 Shoulders
Day 3 Back
Day 4 Chest
Day 5 Arms
Day 6 Rest

-snip-

Start off your arm day with some deadlifts.


[/ QUOTE ]

Please ignore these parts of the post. Your shoulders dont need their own day. Its unlikely your arms need their own day. I dont know why youd deadlift on arm day, its a lowerback/leg excercise. I do love deadlifting though. If anything, they deserve their own day. The rest of the post has some good advice though.

A push/pull/lower body type of routine works really well in my experience.
Push: shoulders/chest/triceps
pull: lats/traps/biceps
lowerbody: quads/hamstrings/calves/lowerback/abs

edit: i just looked over your routine. part of why i dont like the arm/shoulder getting their own day is because you are working your triceps on everyday, pretty much. They never have time to recover and youre lifts are going to suffer from this. same with working back and biceps on different days. your back lifts are going to suffer if your biceps are already tired from the day before.

[Bluffoon]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Break your workout into one bodypart per day. Something like this works well:

Day 1 Legs
Day 2 Shoulders
Day 3 Back
Day 4 Chest
Day 5 Arms
Day 6 Rest

-snip-

Start off your arm day with some deadlifts.


[/ QUOTE ]

Please ignore these parts of the post. Your shoulders dont need their own day. Its unlikely your arms need their own day. I dont know why youd deadlift on arm day, its a lowerback/leg excercise. I do love deadlifting though. If anything, they deserve their own day. The rest of the post has some good advice though.

A push/pull/lower body type of routine works really well in my experience.
Push: shoulders/chest/triceps
pull: lats/traps/biceps
lowerbody: quads/hamstrings/calves/lowerback/abs

edit: i just looked over your routine. part of why i dont like the arm/shoulder getting their own day is because you are working your triceps on everyday, pretty much. They never have time to recover and youre lifts are going to suffer from this. same with working back and biceps on different days. your back lifts are going to suffer if your biceps are already tired from the day before.

[/ QUOTE ]

The reason that I suggested breaking down your workout into bodyparts is so that the you can more thoroughly stress each body part during your workout and also allow time for rest and recuperation. There are many different approaches. The concept is what is important.

[Bluffoon]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Break your workout into one bodypart per day. Something like this works well:

Day 1 Legs
Day 2 Shoulders
Day 3 Back
Day 4 Chest
Day 5 Arms
Day 6 Rest

-snip-

Start off your arm day with some deadlifts.


[/ QUOTE ]

Please ignore these parts of the post. Your shoulders dont need their own day. Its unlikely your arms need their own day. I dont know why youd deadlift on arm day, its a lowerback/leg excercise. I do love deadlifting though. If anything, they deserve their own day. The rest of the post has some good advice though.

A push/pull/lower body type of routine works really well in my experience.
Push: shoulders/chest/triceps
pull: lats/traps/biceps
lowerbody: quads/hamstrings/calves/lowerback/abs

edit: i just looked over your routine. part of why i dont like the arm/shoulder getting their own day is because you are working your triceps on everyday, pretty much. They never have time to recover and youre lifts are going to suffer from this. same with working back and biceps on different days. your back lifts are going to suffer if your biceps are already tired from the day before.

[/ QUOTE ]

D you are only working out your Tri's on consecutive days once a week and then you have three days off until you hit them again. And you dont work your bi's until two days after your back and again you have three days off till you hit them again.

[AEKDBet]

You are lifting too much too often. Some studies show that muscle breakdown after two sets is negligible and you are just burning calories. Shoot for 3-4 sets PER MUSCLE GROUP. Bigger muscle groups can handle more set than smaller (e.g. chest vs biceps). Lifting for more than an hour is extreme overkill unless you are on 'roids. I am usually out in < 30 mins.

1) Gains take time. a lot of time.

2) Muscle Hypertrophy (growth) comes best through shock like you said. Math gets you this. Google periodization. Also try google groups under Misc.Fitness.Weights and filter for Lyle McDonand and or Krista

3) Eat. Eat. Eat. Eat. This can't be stressed enough. Then rest rest rest. Lift heavy things inbetween.

Not essential but will definiely speed things up...get yourself some creatine. Its actually good for you even if you aren't lifting. www.dpsnutrition.com (http://www.dpsnutrition.com) - go with AST - cheap and it works.

Couple of things---
What do you weigh?
What do you guess your body fat % is?
How many calories are you taking in / day?
What are you goals? A certian weight, strength, leaness?

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
The reason that I suggested breaking down your workout into bodyparts is so that the you can more thoroughly stress each body part during your workout and also allow time for rest and recuperation. There are many different approaches. The concept is what is important.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is all wrong. The whole bodypart split routine is idiotic if you want a body that works rather than a bunch of big uncoordinated parts. The way to get big and strong is by doing the big compound exercises. Do the Deadlift, Bench Press and Squat. Do all three 2-3 times a week. You don't need to work the small parts like tris separately. They get plenty of work. And these exercises use the large muscle groups together so your muscles learn to work together. This makes your muscle functional. and also makes you stronger when you need it for something other than looking good in the gym.

[J.R.]

You'll need to take steroids if you want to lift like that. Otherwise, you need to REST a lot to grow, and to AVOID overtraining. Jake and AEKDBet's ideas are sound- bacis, heavy, compound lifts of high intesity- get in and out of the gym quickly and take days off.

Its no wonder you are plateauing after wrecking your body the past 6 months -- your routine is ABSURD assuming you don't juice, and if you're juicing.... bad news. Spending 9 sets on your biceps, a minor muscle and then doing 13 more chest sets in a single day is more than I lift a week, and I'm 5'11 215 @8%. Google "mike mentzer" for natural strength/mass lifting philosphies and put down the ronnie coleman loving muscle mags.

FWIW squating at 4 reps is silly unless you really want to need a knee replacement at an early age.

[Allan]

I thought you didn't like isolation excersizes though.....


Allan

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
This is all wrong. The whole bodypart split routine is idiotic if you want a body that works rather than a bunch of big uncoordinated parts. The way to get big and strong is by doing the big compound exercises. Do the Deadlift, Bench Press and Squat. Do all three 2-3 times a week. You don't need to work the small parts like tris separately. They get plenty of work. And these exercises use the large muscle groups together so your muscles learn to work together. This makes your muscle functional. and also makes you stronger when you need it for something other than looking good in the gym.

[/ QUOTE ]

Disclaimer: This advice in no way guarantees you will be All-County like sup bro.

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
Its no wonder you are plateauing after wrecking your body the past 6 months -- your routine is ABSURD assuming you don't juice, and if you're juicing.... bad news. Spending 9 sets on your biceps, a minor muscle and then doing 13 more chest sets in a single day is more than I lift a week, and I'm 5'11 215. Google "mike mentzer" for natural strength/mass lifting philosphies and put down the ronnie coleman loving muscle mags.

FWIW squating at 4 reps is silly unless you really want to need a knee replacement at an early age.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think we partially agree, but where I'm gonna completely disagree is with Mentzer and his "only way to get stronger is 1-rep max's" philosophy. It's just wrong. Doing the 5x5 I'd only normally go like 75% of what you could do, and you WILL get stronger. Look at world-class power lifters. They rarely go to max outside of meets and they do progress. So yea, I'm not recommending doing 4-rep squats at 100%. Years ago I did try the Mentzer "heavy duty" program. Meh.

[Toro]

You should be working your tris the same day you work your chest since they are a secondary muscle you use when benching. So change to chest/tris and work your biceps the same day you work your back.

[Allan]

I don't think any one has addressed this but what is your diet? Are you eating enough good whole foods to fuel your body?

Allan

[J.R.]

[ QUOTE ]
Google "mike mentzer" for natural strength/mass lifting philosphies

[/ QUOTE ]

I said nothing about routines, I think he is too extreme as well. But his philosophy regarding overtraining is extacly what SGS needs to think about. Mentzer evolved to a kinda "one-set" routine for many of his clients, but has acknowledged its not for everyone. The whole perfect rep is a silly extension of this idea, but its the PHILOSOPHY that less is more that makes metzger valuable to someone indoctrinated into a Weiderific/steroid based overtraining routine.

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Google "mike mentzer" for natural strength/mass lifting philosphies

[/ QUOTE ]

I said nothing about routines, I think he is too extreme as well. But his philosophy regarding overtraining is extacly what SGS need to think about. Mentzer evolved to a kinda "one-set" routine for many of his clients, but has acknowledged its not for everyone. The whole perfect rep is a silly extension of this idea, but its the PHILOSOPHY that less is more that makes metzger valuable to someone indoctrinated into a steroid based overtraining routine.

[/ QUOTE ]
We agree then. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[slickpoppa]

[ QUOTE ]
Do the Deadlift, Bench Press and Squat. Do all three 2-3 times a week.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is terrible advice. There is no way that your muscles can properly recover from these exercises in 2-3 days. Unless you are taking roids, you should not be doing these more than once a week.

[MMMMMM]

You get by far the most benefit from the last rep or two in a set when you go to failure.

Therefore the best way is to pyramid up in a session (after warm-up/stretching to avoid injury) and make your last set a failure set at low reps (like failure at 4 reps perhaps). Do that last killer rep or half-rep with all you've got. Then, and this is important, be sure to rest that body part for a good while so it can properly rebuild stronger than before. For arm reps to and beyond failure you should not lift medium or heavy for at least a week on that specific part (i.e. tris or biceps). You can however do say bis and lats on one day, and tris and chest before your bis and lats are fully recovered. Full recovery for these body parts is like a week or so. You grow during recovery. Don't skimp on recovery. Also get your sleep and stretch a lot during recovery.

You should also do a bunch of sets of very light weight in the interim, say on the third day after. Don't even go medium; the light is important so as to not impede your rebuilding, and the light helps flush out toxins and get rid of stiffness etc.

Try Googling Mike Mentzer Heavy Duty and see what you come up with. If you like the rep-to-utter-failure idea you can even get into forced negatives which takes it a step further. One thing: don't do many reps heavy. The additional reps don't really help and cause a lot more soreness for no good reason and may even hamper your body's ability to recover. The biggest key to shock and growth is that last killer heavy rep or two to utter failure.

Also don't put a fixed number on your reps like 3x8 or whatever. That is not the idea at all although most people do just that. The idea is to safely blast your muscles to and beyond their failure point if possible using a low number of reps with heavy weight. On your better days you may be stronger than on other days for any number of reasons. Therefore it is silly to fix a number of reps ahead of time since your goal is to force the muscle damage and subsequent growth that is initiated on that last killer rep or two.

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Do the Deadlift, Bench Press and Squat. Do all three 2-3 times a week.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is terrible advice. There is no way that your muscles can properly recover from these exercises in 2-3 days. Unless you are taking roids, you should not be doing these more than once a week.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yea they can because you're not going to failure and you're only doing 5 sets. Many competitive powerlifters (not bodybuilders) work out multiple times/day! They aren't on roids. But they keep the workouts short.

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
You get by far the most benefit from the last rep or two in a set when you go to failure.

Therefore the best way is to pyramid up in a session (after warm-up/stretching to avoid injury) and make your last set a failure set at low reps (like failure at 4 reps perhaps). Do that last killer rep or half-rep with all you've got. Then, and this is important, be sure to rest that body part for a good while so it can properly rebuild stronger than before. For arm reps to and beyond failure you should not lift medium or heavy for at least a week on that specific part (i.e. tris or biceps). You can however do say bis and lats on one day, and tris and chest before your bis and lats are fully recovered. Full recovery for these body parts is like a week or so. You grow during recovery. Don't skimp on recovery. Also get your sleep and stretch a lot during recovery.

You should also do a bunch of sets of very light weight in the interim, say on the third day after. Don't even go medium; the light is important so as to not impede your rebuilding, and the light helps flush out toxins and get rid of stiffness etc.

Try Googling Mike Mentzer Heavy Duty and see what you come up with. If you like the rep-to-utter-failure idea you can even get into forced negatives which takes it a step further. One thing: don't do many reps heavy. The additional reps don't really help and cause a lot more soreness for no good reason and may even hamper your body's ability to recover. The biggest key to shock and growth is that last killer heavy rep or two to utter failure.

Also don't put a fixed number on your reps like 3x8 or whatever. That is not the idea at all although most people do just that. The idea is to safely blast your muscles to and beyond their failure point if possible using a low number of reps with heavy weight. On your better days you may be stronger than on other days for any number of reasons. Therefore it is silly to fix a number of reps ahead of time since your goal is to force the muscle damage and subsequent growth that is initiated on that last killer rep or two.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is all wrong. Pushing to failure is a sure way to overtraining. And the strongest men in the world (ie. competitive powerlifters) rarely lift to failure.

[lucas9000]

[ QUOTE ]
I know there are some people on this forumn who lift pretty intensely so I am going to ask for their help. I have been lifting pretty often for about 6 months now roughly five days a week. I saw increases in everything but I am now beginning to pleteau.

[/ QUOTE ]

that is normal. there is a steep "learning curve" initially, but once you get past that you need to work harder and be more disciplined to keep making gains.

[ QUOTE ]
I know shocking your body is the best way to get more results again,

[/ QUOTE ]

you've been lifting for 6 months, you're not ronnie coleman. you don't need to worry about "shocking your body." you are still building a solid foundation, and you should still be focusing on good form and fundamentals, not fancy gimmicks like "shocking your body."

[ QUOTE ]
but I am unsure how to change my workout to do this. Here is what I typically do.

Day 1- Chest/Bis
Bench (10,8,6,4)

[/ QUOTE ]

this is a problem. you do this rep pattern every week? you're going to wear yourself out going down to 4 reps every week, and expose yourself to greater risk of injury. see my recommended program below.

[ QUOTE ]
Incline Dumbbell (3x8)
Decline Dumbbell (3x8)
Cable Flies (3x8)
Bicep Curls (3x8)
Cable Curls (3x8)
Preacher Curls (3x8)

Day 2- Back/Tris (everything is 3x8)
Lat pulls

[/ QUOTE ]

so that's the only exercise you do for your back??? you need to introduce yourself to mr. deadlift.

[ QUOTE ]
I am unsure of the names but 3 more back exercises
Press downs
Press overs
Skull Crushers

Day 3- Legs/Shoulders
Squats (10,8,6,4)

[/ QUOTE ]

again going to 4 reps every week is going to do more harm than good.

[ QUOTE ]
Leg extensions (3x8)
Leg Curls (3x8)
Calf Raises (3x8)
Single leg squats (3x8)
Military press (10,8,6,4)
Upright Row (3x8)
Arnold Press (3x8)

[/ QUOTE ]

the "arnold press" is THE DUMBEST exercise in the whole world. do you know that he made it up as a joke to see if people would actually do it? just think about how it works...it's retarded.

[ QUOTE ]
Lateral Raises (3x8)

I then take a day of and start the cycle over. I am still trying to gain size and strength. I am just curious as the best way to change my workout to shock my body is. I was thinking maybe dropping to all 5 reps and doing 4 sets in everything? Not really sure. Thanks in advance for any help.

[/ QUOTE ]

again, "shocking your body" should be the last of your worries. you have fundamental problems with your training that need to be remedied. here is a very simplistic powerlifting program that i've had a lot of success with.

weeks 1&2: 12 reps of the core exercises
weeks 3&4: 10 reps
week 5: 8-9 reps
week 6: 7-8 reps
week 7: 6 reps
week 8: 5 reps
week 9: 4 reps
week 10: 3 reps
week 11: 2 reps
week 12: 1 rep

what you're doing is gradually getting stronger until you reach the peak of the cycle, then you take 1 or 2 weeks off and repeat again. then you start the next cycle at 12 reps, but this time you should be starting higher than the previous time, and you thus work your way up.

the rep numbers above are for what i've called the "core exercises." these are basically bench press, squats, and deadlifts. you could add military press to that if you want, but no more than that. the core exercises are your top priority. you can and should do other stuff as well, but you would be doing more like 8-10 reps all the way through for that stuff (though you'll want to phase those out over the last few weeks...going so heavy in the core exercises will be taxing enough for your body). i did it on a 7 day split:

day 1: rest
day 2: chest, biceps
day 3: legs
day 4: rest
day 5: shoulders, triceps
day 6: back, abs
day 7: rest

the most important thing for you at this stage is mastering proper form, and building a solid foundation using the core exercises.

this advice will not fit in with the gimmicks you've probably read in the magazines, but that's because those gimmicks are worthless and the magazines push them to sell copy. you can rest assured that all the huge freaks in the magazines talking about "shocking their bodies" got where they are now by building themselves up using the core exercises.

everyone is different, and you should modify my advice as you go to fit how your body works. you can ignore my advice if you like, but i assure you that trying to "shock your body" now, and following your current routine, will hold you back in the long run (whether that's because of injury or stifled development). good luck.

[Alobar]

I havent read any other responses, so maybe this has been mentioned already.

But read up on periodization, this is the best way to keep improving muslce gains when your body starts to plateu.

Also, quit doing the same exersises for each muscle every single time. you have to change it up. You always keep the strength movement (benchpress for chest for example), but change up the other stuff every now and then. Even just changing from a flat bar to dumbells is a good thing.

[lucas9000]

[ QUOTE ]
But yeah, to get bigger, drop the reps and up the weight. You've been lifting long enough to be able to do this with little injury risk.

[/ QUOTE ]

that is absolutely horrible advice and anyone who reads this should ignore it.

[lucas9000]

[ QUOTE ]
but if you've been doing the same exercise for more than about six weeks, you really should change.

[/ QUOTE ]

most of what you said was decent, but this is plain wrong. you would be better off to NEVER drop bench presses, squats, and deadlifts from your workout. sure, you can mix up some of the other stuff, but 6 weeks is likely way too frequently, and not really essential.

[lucas9000]

[ QUOTE ]
Do the Deadlift, Bench Press and Squat.

[/ QUOTE ]

i love you man.

[ QUOTE ]
Do all three 2-3 times a week.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is cool as long as you do it according to a routine designed around that. doing all 3 of those 2-3 times a week in a haphazard manner could [censored] you up good. it needs to have the proper structure.

[lucas9000]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Do the Deadlift, Bench Press and Squat. Do all three 2-3 times a week.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is terrible advice. There is no way that your muscles can properly recover from these exercises in 2-3 days. Unless you are taking roids, you should not be doing these more than once a week.

[/ QUOTE ]

that is a legitimate natural routine, provided it's structured properly (you're obviously not going heavy on each one every time).

[lucas9000]

[ QUOTE ]
You are lifting too much too often. Some studies show that muscle breakdown after two sets is negligible and you are just burning calories. Shoot for 3-4 sets PER MUSCLE GROUP. Bigger muscle groups can handle more set than smaller (e.g. chest vs biceps). Lifting for more than an hour is extreme overkill unless you are on 'roids. I am usually out in < 30 mins.

1) Gains take time. a lot of time.

2) Muscle Hypertrophy (growth) comes best through shock like you said. Math gets you this. Google periodization. Also try google groups under Misc.Fitness.Weights and filter for Lyle McDonand and or Krista

3) Eat. Eat. Eat. Eat. This can't be stressed enough. Then rest rest rest. Lift heavy things inbetween.

Not essential but will definiely speed things up...get yourself some creatine. Its actually good for you even if you aren't lifting. www.dpsnutrition.com (http://www.dpsnutrition.com) - go with AST - cheap and it works.

Couple of things---
What do you weigh?
What do you guess your body fat % is?
How many calories are you taking in / day?
What are you goals? A certian weight, strength, leaness?

[/ QUOTE ]

this is excellent advice. note that he qualified the "shocking your body" thing with periodization. that is a great concept, though maybe one you should save until you've been lifting longer.

[jakethebake]

Meh. Nevermind. I ran the posts together. Thought yours was the other one.

[lucas9000]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Its no wonder you are plateauing after wrecking your body the past 6 months -- your routine is ABSURD assuming you don't juice, and if you're juicing.... bad news. Spending 9 sets on your biceps, a minor muscle and then doing 13 more chest sets in a single day is more than I lift a week, and I'm 5'11 215. Google "mike mentzer" for natural strength/mass lifting philosphies and put down the ronnie coleman loving muscle mags.

FWIW squating at 4 reps is silly unless you really want to need a knee replacement at an early age.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think we partially agree, but where I'm gonna completely disagree is with Mentzer and his "only way to get stronger is 1-rep max's" philosophy. It's just wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

[lucas9000]

[ QUOTE ]
Meh. Nevermind. I ran the posts together. Thought yours was the other one.

[/ QUOTE ]

uhhh...

[turnipmonster]

a lot of good advice on how to get bigger here, my question is what's optimal for toning? I'm not really interested in building more muscle mass, but would like to be more cut. currently my weight routine is:

chest/shoulders
bench, 4 sets: 10/8/8/6
incline, 3 sets 10/8/8
decline, same
shoulder press, same
shrugs, same
flys (for shoulders, don't know the name for this) 10/10/10

biceps/triceps
curls 10/8/6
concentration curls 10/8/6
reverse curls 10/8/6
tricep pulldowns (machine) 14/12/10
pulldowns w/rope 14/12/10

back
back and front pulldowns (machine) 12/10/8
rows 12/10/8

I don't do legs because I hate doing legs. I have pretty strong legs from distance running. advice?

[lucas9000]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You get by far the most benefit from the last rep or two in a set when you go to failure.

Therefore the best way is to pyramid up in a session (after warm-up/stretching to avoid injury) and make your last set a failure set at low reps (like failure at 4 reps perhaps). Do that last killer rep or half-rep with all you've got. Then, and this is important, be sure to rest that body part for a good while so it can properly rebuild stronger than before. For arm reps to and beyond failure you should not lift medium or heavy for at least a week on that specific part (i.e. tris or biceps). You can however do say bis and lats on one day, and tris and chest before your bis and lats are fully recovered. Full recovery for these body parts is like a week or so. You grow during recovery. Don't skimp on recovery. Also get your sleep and stretch a lot during recovery.

You should also do a bunch of sets of very light weight in the interim, say on the third day after. Don't even go medium; the light is important so as to not impede your rebuilding, and the light helps flush out toxins and get rid of stiffness etc.

Try Googling Mike Mentzer Heavy Duty and see what you come up with. If you like the rep-to-utter-failure idea you can even get into forced negatives which takes it a step further. One thing: don't do many reps heavy. The additional reps don't really help and cause a lot more soreness for no good reason and may even hamper your body's ability to recover. The biggest key to shock and growth is that last killer heavy rep or two to utter failure.

Also don't put a fixed number on your reps like 3x8 or whatever. That is not the idea at all although most people do just that. The idea is to safely blast your muscles to and beyond their failure point if possible using a low number of reps with heavy weight. On your better days you may be stronger than on other days for any number of reasons. Therefore it is silly to fix a number of reps ahead of time since your goal is to force the muscle damage and subsequent growth that is initiated on that last killer rep or two.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is all wrong. Pushing to failure is a sure way to overtraining. And the strongest men in the world (ie. competitive powerlifters) rarely lift to failure.

[/ QUOTE ]

once again jake is spot-on.

[Toro]

[ QUOTE ]

This is all wrong. Pushing to failure is a sure way to overtraining. And the strongest men in the world (ie. competitive powerlifters) rarely lift to failure.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. I dislike the failed rep, avoided it and got great results(when I was well into my 40's) without using it.

[BeerMoney]

Tons of flat bench. Lots of stuff for the chest. Tons of stuff for your back. Legs if needed. The legs get your hormones going cause they're such a big muscle group. I used to eat egg whites and eat turkey.

[lucas9000]

[ QUOTE ]
a lot of good advice on how to get bigger here, my question is what's optimal for toning?

[/ QUOTE ]

if by "toning" you mean losing body fat, then the primary answer is diet. there is no such thing as spot reduction, toning exercises, etc. proper diet and added cardio will help shed some body fat, which gives you a more "toned" look.

[lucas9000]

[ QUOTE ]
Legs if needed.

[/ QUOTE ]

if needed? if you have legs, it's needed.

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Legs if needed.

[/ QUOTE ]

if needed? if you have legs, it's needed.

[/ QUOTE ]

[MEbenhoe]

Well there's a lot of problems I see with the set up of your workout right away.

First off, you say your goals are to increase size and build strength. Well what you must first understand is that these are two completely different goals. To gain size you're gonna wanna do hypertrophy, while to gain strength you're going to do muscular strength work. This is possible to do, but it requires a workout designed to target both of these.

Next, I absolutely hate the way you have your workout structured into days of Chest/Bis, Back/Tris, and Legs/Shoulders. When lifting you want to start with your power and core exercises and then move on to your assistance exercises. Also, your workout will be much more effective if you alternate from pushing exercises to pulling exercises. An example of an Upper body day that uses this setup would be:

Bench
Seated Row
Shoulder Press
Lat Pulldowns
Incline Press
Cable Flies
Tricep Pushdowns
Bicep Curls
Skullcrushers
Preacher Curls

I can get a lot more in depth into this, but I don't want this post to get too long. Basically it all depends on what your specific goals of what you want to get out of your workout are. If you want some more info feel free to PM me and I'd be happy to help you set up a workout specific to your goals. I'm a fitness major in college so you can trust that I'm not just pulling this out of my ass and that I do have actual training in the area.

Let me know if you need anything,

Matt

[RogerZBT]

rookie here...

I knew how to bench press and do squats. When I went to find out about deadlifts, I found video that looks very close to the squat. Is the video wrong? Is there some difference I'm missing?

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
rookie here...
I knew how to bench press and do squats. When I went to find out about deadlifts, I found video that looks very close to the squat. Is the video wrong? Is there some difference I'm missing?

[/ QUOTE ]

Your legs get some work, but it's very much a back exercise...THE back exercise. It's very much a myth that it's strictly a lower back exercise too. It works the hell out of the whole back. There are variations, both bent-legged and straight-legged. I'm trying to think of a good book that describes the exercise so you can figure out where the muscular emphasis is when performing it. Maybe someone else can help?

[lucas9000]

[ QUOTE ]
rookie here...

I knew how to bench press and do squats. When I went to find out about deadlifts, I found video that looks very close to the squat. Is the video wrong? Is there some difference I'm missing?

[/ QUOTE ]

i could go on and on about deadlifts...
here is a good instruction (http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/ErectorSpinae/BBDeadlift.html)

make sure to keep the bar close to your body (scraping your shins up with the bar is a good thing...some people wear long socks or even shin guards), keep your knees from drifting too far forward (like squats), and keep your head up. a trick i learned from a powerlifter friend: right before you grab the bar, flex your triceps. you don't want your biceps getting involved, as you could tear one. so you flex your tris to get your biceps extended and to keep them from being tensed and pulling to begin with.

also, if you can find someone who knows what they're doing (a good trainer/powerlifter/etc), talk to them and have them critique your form. this is the type of exercise that can bite back HARD if your form is bad. you are correct to want to do it though...it's one of the best there is.

and yes, it is similar to a squat, though there are of course differences.

[IndieMatty]

Dude, you pwown this thread.

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
make sure to keep the bar close to your body (scraping your shins up with the bar is a good thing...some people wear long socks or even shin guards), keep your knees from drifting too far forward (like squats), and keep your head up. a trick i learned from a powerlifter friend: right before you grab the bar, flex your triceps. you don't want your biceps getting involved, as you could tear one. so you flex your tris to get your biceps extended and to keep them from being tensed and pulling to begin with.

also, if you can find someone who knows what they're doing (a good trainer/powerlifter/etc), talk to them and have them critique your form. this is the type of exercise that can bite back HARD if your form is bad. you are correct to want to do it though...it's one of the best there is.

and yes, it is similar to a squat, though there are of course differences.

[/ QUOTE ]

and make sure you're body is hard when you do them, particularly your trunk. in other words, tighten your abs and back. Flex your armpits (yes I know it sounds weird) and pull in/up inside like you're trying to hold a crap in.

I personally hold my breath when I do them (it increases intra-abdominal pressure) although many believe this is bad/dangerous.

[RogerZBT]

Thanks guys...

I put up the two videos side by side. Except for the arm placement (which may be it), I don't see the difference. Guess I'll have to ask a trainer.

[lucas9000]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks guys...

I put up the two videos side by side. Except for the arm placement (which may be it), I don't see the difference. Guess I'll have to ask a trainer.

[/ QUOTE ]

just beware that there are many trainers out there who i wouldn't trust holding my dick while i piss, much less telling me (or someone else) how to train.

[AEKDBet]

Heed Jake's advice.

Stick the Big 3 lifts - build your workouts around those.

Some mistkaes I made when starting out were focusing on the numbers --- Don't focus on lifting big numbers, focus on a nice slow, smooth rep.

The eccentric part of the rep - going down on the bench press for example, versus pushing up (cocentric) actually does more in terms of building strength and mass.

Train hard, and good luck.

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
there are many trainers out there who i wouldn't trust holding my dick while i piss

[/ QUOTE ]
or any other time for that matter.

[slickpoppa]

For deadlifts i reccomend using a trap bar if your gym has one. unless you are training for a competition there is no reason to use a straight bar. the trap bar allows you to stand inside the bar, making it easier to not injure your lower back while doing the deadlift.

[Reef]

Seems to me like you are trying to get WAY too many excercises in on one day. Spread that shiznit out over the whole week.

[lucas9000]

[ QUOTE ]
For deadlifts i reccomend using a trap bar if your gym has one. unless you are training for a competition there is no reason to use a straight bar. the trap bar allows you to stand inside the bar, making it easier to not injure your lower back while doing the deadlift.

[/ QUOTE ]

my problem with those has always been that the position where you hold the bar is fixed...you can't widen or narrow your grip like you can on a regular bar. plus i'm just used to a regular bar. but hey, if that works for you more power to you.

[slickpoppa]

yeah, if you've always used a straight bar and have the technique down, then sure the straight bar is fine. but I think for beginners the trap bar is much better. since the straght bar puts all of the weight in front of your center of gravity, the natural tendency for most beginners is to lean over the bar and lift it almost completely with their lower back. in this respect I think that the trap bar is more ergonomically correct. not being able to adjust your grip width is kind of annoying, but I think it is less important.

[SGS]

I am 6'3" and wiegh about 205. My body fat percentage I would guess to be somewhere 8-9. I am trying to get bigger mainly for looks and my own personal satisfaction. I am 22 in case that matters either.

SGS

[SGS]

I eat a ton. I take protein shakes/bars. Lotsa pasta, seafood, rice. Good stuff mostly.

SGS

[DBowling]

You work your biceps on back day, then on arm day two days later.
You work your triceps on chest day, and then the next day on arm day.
Ive also had shoulder problems, and know many others that have, from overworking them. Working them hard on shoulder day and then benching heavy on chest day is no good, for many. Its unlikely you will be able to bench to your potential if you truely work them hard on shoulder day.
Do you see? or am i not making sense? sorry if im not

[SGS]

So the consensus I am getting is I am lifting way too much way too often and that I should combine the like muscle groups (chest/tri, back/bi). And rest more. I should basically shorten my workouts and spread them out to allow my body resting time, correct? I have just played sports all my life so I always figured more time will yield more results. Thanks for all the replies and help.

SGS

[DBowling]

[ QUOTE ]
So the consensus I am getting is I am lifting way too much way too often and that I should combine the like muscle groups (chest/tri, back/bi). And rest more. I should basically shorten my workouts and spread them out to allow my body resting time, correct? I have just played sports all my life so I always figured more time will yield more results. Thanks for all the replies and help.

SGS

[/ QUOTE ]

yes

[bcunha]

If you've been working out consistently for 6 months, take a week off. You've probably never fully recovered, and it's great for reigniting your motivation.

It will own your plateau.

[SGS]

How many supplementary exercises do you do in addition to the core exercises? For example on chest/bis how many bi sets do u do and how many chest sets do u do other than flat bench press? Thanks.

SGS

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
So the consensus I am getting is I am lifting way too much way too often and that I should combine the like muscle groups (chest/tri, back/bi). And rest more. I should basically shorten my workouts and spread them out to allow my body resting time, correct? I have just played sports all my life so I always figured more time will yield more results. Thanks for all the replies and help. SGS

[/ QUOTE ]

Forget the bodypart split routine entirely. You need big compound exercises. And work your whole body each workout. You're not training for the Mr. Olympia.

[Shajen]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So the consensus I am getting is I am lifting way too much way too often and that I should combine the like muscle groups (chest/tri, back/bi). And rest more. I should basically shorten my workouts and spread them out to allow my body resting time, correct? I have just played sports all my life so I always figured more time will yield more results. Thanks for all the replies and help. SGS

[/ QUOTE ]

Forget the bodypart split routine entirely. You need big compound exercises. And work your whole body each workout. You're not training for the Mr. Olympia.

[/ QUOTE ]

jake, you couldn't be more wrong.

Everyone knows you should stand in front of the mirror when you lift so you can weird people out by your intense stare at your own muscles.

I mean, seriously. Don't you know this? 90% of the guys at my gym apparently use this technique. [censored] narcissists

[johnnybeef]

and most experts will agree with me, three to four days is the most you should be doing. i think this has something to do with why you are starting to plateau. furthermore from the workout regimen which you have listed here, you may want to do less exercises. if you are looking for a change in routine, check out a fitness magazine or even menshealth.com and i think you will find some help there.

thats why they call me beef,

johnny

[lucas9000]

[ QUOTE ]
How many supplementary exercises do you do in addition to the core exercises? For example on chest/bis how many bi sets do u do and how many chest sets do u do other than flat bench press? Thanks.

SGS

[/ QUOTE ]

as others have correctly pointed out, muscles like your biceps get worked indirectly (eg, when doing lat pulldowns). i'd say one exercise specifically for biceps is sufficient. i went a long time without doing any bicep-specifc exercises and developed just fine.

as for chest, i normally do flat bench, then incline, and maybe some cable crossovers if i'm feeling particularly saucy. i love doing dips, and they're a phenomenal exercise, but sometimes i'll do them as part of my shoulder routine rather than chest. do dips regularly and you'll never need to do a tricep-specific exercise.

[Scotch78]

[ QUOTE ]
you would be better off to NEVER drop bench presses, squats, and deadlifts from your workout

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't ever drop them completely. What I will do is work in incline and decline, dumbbells, hack squat, leg press, etc. Doing the exact same exercise for long periods of time is not optimal.

Scott

[jakethebake]

After reading this thread yesterday, I went home last night and dug out some of my old training logs. sup bro?

[Wu36]

[ QUOTE ]
http://www.wannabebigforums.com/

[/ QUOTE ]