Realizing Your Own Leaks

[Jman28]

I thought that I'd share a couple of leaks in my game that I'm aware of in an attempt to

a) stop them
b) perhaps allow you to recognize some that we may share

So, Leak #1: I push often in situations where I know that my opponent would be incorrect to call without AA or KK.

What I need to realize is that most opponents have no idea that even KJs should be layed down in these situations and will call with many hands, which kills their $EV as well as my own.

Leak #2: I try to call too many bluffs on the flop and turn.

I consider picking off river bluffs to be one of the strengths of my game. I believe that I am very good at putting opponents on a range of hands, approximating my chances of being ahead, looking at the pot odds I'm getting and making a decision.

My problem is that I often smell a bluff on the flop or turn, and I call hoping that my opponent won't fire the second barrel and that I can either check it down and win with A high, or steal the pot from them. When they bet again, I find myself in a real tough spot.

I'm thinking the way to plug that is either to give up after their first bluff, or raise rather than just call.

Leak #3: I call too many all ins with pot odds in the BB.

Even though I do have the odds to call with almost any two, I too often call away chips that I need for my own folding equity.

Also, I realized that since I am a winning player, and therefore better than most of my opponents, I shouldn't take gambles that are about even in EV, even according to the ICM. Right?

So, that's what I came up with. I'm sure I have more leaks, but hopefully soon I'll have 3 less than right now.

Oh, also, when 6 handed with small to medium pocket pairs in EP and 8-12 times the BB, I am confused. I probably play them differently every time. What do you generally do?

So, please post any of your own leaks or common leaks that winning players, but not the best players, may have. Thanks.

-Jman28

[Slim Pickens]

[ QUOTE ]
What I need to realize is that most opponents have no idea that even KJs should be layed down in these situations and will call with many hands, which kills their $EV as well as my own.

[/ QUOTE ]

Humor my ignorance. How can it possibly do both at once?

[Jman28]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What I need to realize is that most opponents have no idea that even KJs should be layed down in these situations and will call with many hands, which kills their $EV as well as my own.

[/ QUOTE ]

Humor my ignorance. How can it possibly do both at once?

[/ QUOTE ]

No problem. Thank for asking the question. I'm gonna use an example similar to one presented in TPFAP by Sklansky.

Assuming equal skill, the stack size of a player in proportion to the total chips in play shows their chance of winning the tourney.

Let's say there are 3 people left in a tourney, all with 1000 chips.

1st place pays $5k, 2nd pays $3k, 3rd pays $2k.

That's 10k and three equal players with equal stacks. There expected winnings are ~$3.33k each.

Now, lets say players 1 and 2 go all in on a coin flip. Assume the outcome is exactly 50/50.

The winner of that hand will have 2k chips and player 3 will still have his 1k.

The hand winner (W) will win the tourney 2/3 of the time and get 2nd 1/3.

Expected winnings for W = 2/3 * 5k + 1/3 * 3k = $4.33k

Expected winnings for player 3 = 1/3 * 5k + 2/3 * 3k = $3.66k

Notice that player 3's expectancy went up from $3.33k to $3.66k.

Player 1 & 2 will get $2k half the time and $4.33k half the time for an average of ~$3.17k, a decrease from the $3.33k.

This example, I realize as I'm finished, does not show a huge difference in EV, but the more drastic the payout increase from 3rd to 2nd, the more pronounced this difference would be.

In addition, when 4th place is $0.00 as it is in SnGs on Party, the expectancy there changes a lot when you go all in with another player.

I don't want to do the math assuming 4 spots because that gets trickier, but this simpler design should at least show where the principle comes from.

In conclusion, calling all ins on the bubble or even ITM with a small edge = Bad. And thats assuming you're of equal skill to your opponents. If you're better than they are, it's even worse to gamble it up. If you're much worse, go for it.

-Jman28

[Slim Pickens]

Leak #1 in my game: Forgetting important fundamental concepts once I've think I've learned their application. Sometimes I think I should just quit while I'm ahead. Thanks for the reminder though.

[Laughingboy]

Great idea for a thread.

I've discovered over the last few days that I have several leaks that come down to simple greediness, and I've paid the price bigtime. They usually involve betting less than I should with a good hand, trying to get customers, followed by immediate punishment when one of them sucks out on me, often with a hand I probably could have made them fold if I'd bet more.

My normal strategy if I think I'm ahead is to assess a range of draws my opponents might have, then bet just enough to make it a bad deal for anyone to call. However, I think my calculations have been too simplistic. This strategy is all you need for side games (assuming the calculations are correct), but needs to be adjusted for SNGs, because a "bad deal" is defined differently.

Also, I don't think I'm properly taking implied odds into account. I think about them, but they are tricky in NL, because a player could bet his whole stack on any hand. Usually my thoughts revolve around the chances I might get his whole stack when I feel I have him beat. Greediness again. This is certainly a valid consideration, but I doubt it's sufficient.

So I address this question to my betters: where can I find a good, cogent discussion of dealing with implied odds in NL in general and SNGs in particular?

Thanks in advance.

[Jman28]

[ QUOTE ]
Leak #3: I call too many all ins with pot odds in the BB.

Even though I do have the odds to call with almost any two, I too often call away chips that I need for my own folding equity.


[/ QUOTE ]

So far, still doing this one. I can't resist. Someone hit me or something.

Seat 2: MrSweets28 ( $2475 )
Seat 5: lilwinston44 ( $775 )
Seat 6: sufan7 ( $2305 )
Seat 9: badbeat2c ( $2445 )
Trny:9032546 Level:5
Blinds(100/200)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to MrSweets28 [ 7s Td ]
lilwinston44 is all-In [775]
sufan7 folds.
badbeat2c folds.
MrSweets28 calls [575].

[spentrent]

I don't know if this is a leak, but it comes up a lot: 5 or so players left, the level increases, and I find myself with 2-3BB UTG. I'm holding something like 89o. This is my last chance to take advantage of any sliver of fold equity, so I push, knowing that I will only be called by a dominating hand.

Comments? Should I close my eyes and pray for a better hand on the big blind?

[FishBurger]

[ QUOTE ]
In conclusion, calling all ins on the bubble or even ITM with a small edge = Bad. And thats assuming you're of equal skill to your opponents. If you're better than they are, it's even worse to gamble it up. If you're much worse, go for it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know if this is true for SnGs where you are lucky to have 10xBB when it gets down to 3-4 handed. When I have less than 10xBB I'm very happy to make a call that puts me allin with a small edge. It's much better than waiting around and getting allin as a large dog.

[ReDeYES88]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know if this is a leak, but it comes up a lot: 5 or so players left, the level increases, and I find myself with 2-3BB UTG. I'm holding something like 89o. This is my last chance to take advantage of any sliver of fold equity, so I push, knowing that I will only be called by a dominating hand.

Comments? Should I close my eyes and pray for a better hand on the big blind?

[/ QUOTE ]

you should forecast the position of the button and the blind amounts several hands BEFORE this happens, so that you can leverage increased fold equity to avoid this situation altogether. FE must be a club, not a toothpick.

[El Maximo]

I think alot of leaks stem from other larger problems. Some leaks are just symptoms of bigger underlying problems. I think most of mine stem from 2 things. When Im running hot I get overaggressive and cocky. Eventually I get burned bad and wise up. When Im running cold I get too passive and weak. I play for 3rd. I try and sneak into the money. Both I think are a discipline problem. I need to make the correct play each time. I cant let the outcome of the last 10 SnGs effect my current play.

[Sluss]

[ QUOTE ]
Leak #2: I try to call too many bluffs on the flop and turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Holy cow has this been killing me in the past few weeks. When I read a guy for second or third pair or top pair weak kicker, I will bet to make him fold. Of course he doesn't.

My read is right. My action is right. The situation is wrong. I just forget that folding is not in some people's head when they have a piece of the board. But instead of using this to my advantage, I have just been banging my head against a wall.

[revots33]

I think one of my leaks might be folding too much with middle pair once someone bets. For example, if I have QJ and the flop comes 4QA and a player bets, I usually fold. I'm not saying folding isn't correct sometimes - but I think this play is letting agressive opponents bluff me out of a lot of pots where I'm actually in the lead. I need to work on playing hands where I only partially hit the flop - I tend to assume the worst when it comes to putting my opponents on a hand, which I think leads me to play too weak tight sometimes. If anyone has any good advice on this subject I'd love to hear it!

[YourFoxyGrandma]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know if this is true for SnGs where you are lucky to have 10xBB when it gets down to 3-4 handed. When I have less than 10xBB I'm very happy to make a call that puts me allin with a small edge. It's much better than waiting around and getting allin as a large dog.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is wrong because there is a huge difference between calling an all-in anad raising all-in, assuming you have some sort of fold equity.

[jd2b2006]

[ QUOTE ]
I think one of my leaks might be folding too much with middle pair once someone bets. For example, if I have QJ and the flop comes 4QA and a player bets, I usually fold. I'm not saying folding isn't correct sometimes - but I think this play is letting agressive opponents bluff me out of a lot of pots where I'm actually in the lead. I need to work on playing hands where I only partially hit the flop - I tend to assume the worst when it comes to putting my opponents on a hand, which I think leads me to play too weak tight sometimes. If anyone has any good advice on this subject I'd love to hear it!

[/ QUOTE ]


This use to be a big leak in my game too, and is still something I am working on. If you notice an aggressive player always pot-betting after being checked to on the flop, use it to your advantage later. In your example, if I am out-of-position with JQ and the aggressive player has limped regularly in late position, I will check to him with the intention of calling. I then check again, and I find a great majority of the time that they check behind. If this is too passive, there is nothing wrong with check/raising here as you will know where you are at in a quicker fashion than check/calling.

[nokona13]

I have a related problem. When I'm the aggressor pre-flop, I practically ALWAYS make a big continuation bet or raise weak bets unless the flop is something that looks like it could give someone a monster. I do this especially when I'm on the big stack and think I can scare them into folding. I've paid many times for this by finding myself near the bottom of the chips stack instead of on top in just a hand or two.

[stillnotking]

[ QUOTE ]

In conclusion, calling all ins on the bubble or even ITM with a small edge = Bad. And thats assuming you're of equal skill to your opponents. If you're better than they are, it's even worse to gamble it up. If you're much worse, go for it.

-Jman28

[/ QUOTE ]

I have always had a problem with this reasoning. Let me explain why.

Let's take a case where a player will be incorrect to call an all-in bet with anything but AA or KK. His opponent knows this, and will push with any two cards. Therefore it immediately becomes correct for the first player to expand his range of calling hands. So I'm not sure that your opponents are actually making a mistake by calling with KJs, if they know that you know that they shouldn't call with anything but AA/KK. Make sense?

[Jman28]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

In conclusion, calling all ins on the bubble or even ITM with a small edge = Bad. And thats assuming you're of equal skill to your opponents. If you're better than they are, it's even worse to gamble it up. If you're much worse, go for it.

-Jman28

[/ QUOTE ]

I have always had a problem with this reasoning. Let me explain why.

Let's take a case where a player will be incorrect to call an all-in bet with anything but AA or KK. His opponent knows this, and will push with any two cards. Therefore it immediately becomes correct for the first player to expand his range of calling hands. So I'm not sure that your opponents are actually making a mistake by calling with KJs, if they know that you know that they shouldn't call with anything but AA/KK. Make sense?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, it makes sense. However, I'm talking about situations where calling an all in with KJs would be wrong even if they knew I had something like 75s. These situations are rare, but they do happen.

-Jman28

P.S. - What happened to discussing our leaks?

[bigredlemon]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think one of my leaks might be folding too much with middle pair once someone bets. For example, if I have QJ and the flop comes 4QA and a player bets, I usually fold. I'm not saying folding isn't correct sometimes - but I think this play is letting agressive opponents bluff me out of a lot of pots where I'm actually in the lead. I need to work on playing hands where I only partially hit the flop - I tend to assume the worst when it comes to putting my opponents on a hand, which I think leads me to play too weak tight sometimes. If anyone has any good advice on this subject I'd love to hear it!

[/ QUOTE ]


This use to be a big leak in my game too, and is still something I am working on. If you notice an aggressive player always pot-betting after being checked to on the flop, use it to your advantage later. In your example, if I am out-of-position with JQ and the aggressive player has limped regularly in late position, I will check to him with the intention of calling. I then check again, and I find a great majority of the time that they check behind. If this is too passive, there is nothing wrong with check/raising here as you will know where you are at in a quicker fashion than check/calling.

[/ QUOTE ]But even manics flop top pair sometimes. Is it a good idea to put your stack in his hands, where you lose big if he's not bluffing, but win small if he is?

[Sluss]

[ QUOTE ]
I tend to assume the worst when it comes to putting my opponents on a hand, which I think leads me to play too weak tight sometimes. If anyone has any good advice on this subject I'd love to hear it!

[/ QUOTE ]

Lately every time I've thought this and then talked my self into that I am being weak tight...the guy has had it. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[stillnotking]

One of my leaks:

- Overvaluing small aces on the bubble. I believe that pushing with A2-A8 is very often incorrect if your opponent has a "reasonable" range of calling hands. For example, if villain will call with any pair, any ace down to A5, KQ-KT, QJ, QT, then 87s has just as much equity as A2o and is less likely to be a dominated hand.

[Slim Pickens]

[ QUOTE ]
P.S. - What happened to discussing our leaks?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry for the inadvertant hijack.

I see my big leak as this: My leaks change faster than I can keep up with them. One day, I'm calling a reraise all-in with jack high after getting a bluff snapped off thinking my opponent must be bluffing even more to make such a large reraise. The next I'm check-folding the turn with Q7 from the BB after flopping 77T, after being called on flop. Too LAG one day, overcorrect, overly tight-passive the next. In a phrase, "overcorrection for mistakes."

[jd2b2006]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think one of my leaks might be folding too much with middle pair once someone bets. For example, if I have QJ and the flop comes 4QA and a player bets, I usually fold. I'm not saying folding isn't correct sometimes - but I think this play is letting agressive opponents bluff me out of a lot of pots where I'm actually in the lead. I need to work on playing hands where I only partially hit the flop - I tend to assume the worst when it comes to putting my opponents on a hand, which I think leads me to play too weak tight sometimes. If anyone has any good advice on this subject I'd love to hear it!

[/ QUOTE ]


This use to be a big leak in my game too, and is still something I am working on. If you notice an aggressive player always pot-betting after being checked to on the flop, use it to your advantage later. In your example, if I am out-of-position with JQ and the aggressive player has limped regularly in late position, I will check to him with the intention of calling. I then check again, and I find a great majority of the time that they check behind. If this is too passive, there is nothing wrong with check/raising here as you will know where you are at in a quicker fashion than check/calling.

[/ QUOTE ]But even manics flop top pair sometimes. Is it a good idea to put your stack in his hands, where you lose big if he's not bluffing, but win small if he is?

[/ QUOTE ]


I'm not saying to put your stack on the line with middle pair. What I have found is most aggressive players at low levels play top pair differently than when they have nothing. In the situation discussed, I tend to check/call the flop, and lead out on the turn. If I get raised, I fold; if called, I put them on a draw. I try to keep the pot small, so that my stack is not in their hands.

[TheRegulat0r]

My biggest leak right now is probably my inability to lay-down to a reraise when I'm stealing the blinds, even when I have stack of 20+ BB.

Earlier today I raised first in for 350 with KJs on the button with about 2500 in my stack. The blinds were 50/100, and the small blind who was around 1100 pushed all-in. Without hesitation I called. Yeah, if I pick up those chips I'm in really good shape to run over the remaining three player, but KJs? What the hell was I thinking.

[LeVoodoo]

I'm on the biggest cold streak of my young STT career right now, so my leaks seem large and numerous. I can think of a dozen off the top of my head. The two most glaring right now would be..

I over-estimate my opposition (5+.5). When I raise 250 pre-flop with bullets and get one caller, I don't expect him to have 57o when the flop is a rainbowed 468, but lo and behold, he did. Expect the unexpected, i suppose.

I don't raise enough with major hands (AA, KK). I want callers, I don't want to win 80 chips, I feel that my hand deserves better. Inevitably, a flush or straight draw comes on the flop and I get taken.

[Michael C.]

Excellent subject for a thread. Here are some of my leaks:

1) Making moves too quickly without taking the time to think about what I'm doing, especially when I'm multi-tabling. I'll see that a raise is the right thing to do, so will raise 2x the big blind when pushing is the only right move. The other day I made the all time blunder, calling an all-in from a player for 540, without even realizing the bb was the chip leader with a 400 ante. Not re-raising all in put me out 4th when he hit.

2) Too much calling when I think I'm best with, say, second pair, instead of raising, or even pushing. I think to improve my game I have to have more confidence in my reads. Either they're right and they'll make me more chips, or they're wrong and I need to figure out why.

3) I get too affected by bad beats. I don't exactly steam, but I either loosen up slightly to try to hit a flop or I get gunshy and tighten up way too much (which one often depends on how I got bad beat).

I know I have several other leaks, but those are three that come to mind.

[Larrel]

THANK YOU.

I have felt like the biggest idiot making some of the decisions I have. I even wanted to change my alias on UB after one bonehead call.

Leak #1: I hate theft. When I see someone stealing and getting away with it I want to punish them. The problem is that I make stupid calls and end up losing. I am not necessarily the better player and I shouldn't care if they increase their stack off of other players. Right?

Leak #2: Not realizing the value (or lack) of my hand after the flop when holding AK. AK and QQ are a problem for me. There are times to fold these.

Leak #3: Ever playing AT (or more precisely playing it right). I have heard that everyone has a set of hole cards that haunts them...these are mine.

I have only been playing for a couple months and see myself as an Uber Newb, but I love SNG's and appreciate the information to be found here.

[A_PLUS]

I think pushing with 89o is the only play here. As you can see from this thread, even for the 2+2ers, calling all-in from the BB is a common habit, if you play with people that will only call with a high pair, even better that huge FE. If I have 500 left and the blinds are 200 100, I happily take an 89o vs. AJo. Id rather push with a middle connector than a baby king or ace in this spot, b/c there is a much less chance you are dominated.

Think about it from the perspective of the other players. example: You are BB(200) with K9s. There is 5 players left and you have 1400 in 3rd place. 4th and 5th place have 500-700 TCs each at UG and UG+1, wouldn't you much rather see them fold than go all-in?

[assron]

my biggest leak: I love draw happy flops way too much, and let them make or break me when I could easily wait for a better opportunity. I even base my starting hand selection on how they will fare on a draw happy board -- winning big pots, especially in dramatic fashion, is my end all and be all in nl holdem.

[A_PLUS]

After clearing the last Party Reload bonus, I experimented with some higher than usual SNGs. I had only played 20$ before, but played 30-100 last night. Playing better players can sure bring out your flaws. Here is the main thing that I have noticed.

I have been depending too much on pre-flop hand selection. At lower limits, you can play only premium hands until 5-6 players are left and be fine. Better players see through this and aren't afraid to test you when it looks like you missed your flop. Against better players, hands like AK-KJ have very small implied odds post flop. You aren't going to be winning many pots with TPTK. I sometimes get caught up raising these hands 4x BB to open, getting called and missing the flop. I try to mix up whether or not to stab or check-fold, but 2 or 3 misses and I am out of the STT.

Basically I need to save my raises for made hands and pure bluffs. With shallow money, 4X BB raises with AJ are a high risk way to get chips.

This also led me to a revalation that may be helpful to those having problems when to look up a LAG with a hand they think is best (2nd pair was the example).

My advice (what was done to me with great successs): If you are planning a check raise, what you COOULD have is more important than what you have. A paired board, potential straight, etc. If you think your hand is best on the flop, it is better to lead out or raise. If you are having a hard time building up the courage, remember if you see someone playing more than 1/3 of their hands and raising every time the flop is checked to them, you have a 2/3 chance of being right with your bluff.

Wow, sorry for the rant. Very therapeutic.