Follow through on semibluff from SB? 200 sng party

[Jason Strasser]

200 sng on party.

blinds 15/30. I get Q3o in SB. 2 limpers, sb folds I check. Flop JT9r. Checked around. Turn 9. I bet 65. First limper calls, second folds. River a blank 5.

I bet 175. Thoughts?

[raptor517]

i think the pot is yours for 175. however, i woudlnt bother betting the turn. i dont like to get involved much at all early with marginal holdings. that being said, i like the bet on the river because i dont think he can call it unless he is quite strong.

[Jason Strasser]

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i dont like to get involved much at all early with marginal holdings.

[/ QUOTE ]

This argument is so used on this board and so incredibly wrong.

[The once and future king]

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This argument is so used on this board and so incredibly wrong.

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Why?.

[adanthar]

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This argument is so used on this board and so incredibly wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

About time somebody else said that. I was getting bored so I stopped, but seriously, so goddamn wrong it isn't funny.

[jah0550]

I like the play. It looks like you have three 9s. My guess is he probably had a queen or 8 looking for the straight. I might suspect that he is slowplaying a straight with KQ or 78, but since there was no raise PF, I'd say that your play was fine.

[The once and future king]

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About time somebody else said that. I was getting bored so I stopped, but seriously, so goddamn wrong it isn't funny.


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Please explain why. I am genuinely curious. Why play marginal hands early. Surely that is what the fish are doing and you are not doing. Later this situation is reversed.

I thought this was the essence of SNG play.

[microbet]

I don't know what I'm talking about, but I want to try and answer because being yelled at will be educational.

Playing tight early and loose later on is not a rule. It is just what usually should happen if you play well.

The more players at the table the better a hand has to be to be considered good. Therefore, non-bluffing starting hands (and continuing hands if several players see the flop) will have to be MUCH better in the beginning. Also, it is not worth throwing a very big bet at very small blinds and, especially in lower levels, a reasonable raise with small blinds doesn't have much fold equity.

The consequence of these facts is that you don't play many hands and you don't generally try and steal blinds early in the tourney.

However, once you have some money in the pot and you have a limited field, and you think it is likely that your opponant can put you on a superior hand, you can take a shot just like you might in a later round.

[Jason Strasser]

Im not suggesting to play tons of marginal hands, but I think that good sng players look for chances to play hands with bad players. Good players last longer than bad players. So saying to not play a hand because its early... Is silly.

[Ship_it_tome]

funny thing bout the fish, strassa 2, i play alot of hands, i dont encourage that to anybody, but i seem to know everyone at my level, and they are almost all bad. i played a tourney yesterday, i noticed he open pushed in levels 1-3 and i hopped on all of his tables. General rule of thumb is never to call open push that early, however, i seen this guy push with suited and unsuited connectors as low as 34. I played in 7 more tourneys with him and he busted me out of 6 of them when i was the favorite each time, calling with AK, AQ, KQ, 99, 88, and A10. i had him beat everyhand and still lost, big deal huh. i love the fish.

[Irieguy]

This seems fine, but against certain players that bet amount looks too much like what it is.

I really like the opportunity to bluff at this, but I think that against a lot of players you can check the river and induce a completely naked bluff by them. The paired board and visible straight makes a healthy but less than the pot-sized check-raise very, very difficult to call.

If I didn't think my opponent was capable of this I would just bet 150-200 on the river like you did. This would be my most likely play at a $55. But at a $109 or $215 I would be much more inclined to induce a bluff on the river and snap it off.

Irieguy

PS- FWIW, all the talk on this board about not getting involved early with marginal hands is absolutely, positively 100% correct at the limits in which those comments are being discussed, ie the $11's. You have such a ridiculous overlay on the bubble at those limits that you can achieve a 30%+ ROI by just folding for 3 levels and pushing for 3 levels. Once a good portion of the table understands how to steal blinds you need to play some more poker to beat the game. I think most of the higher limit players on this board understand that.

[Ship_it_tome]

LOL,you have a good point ireguy,

NO WONDER I COULDNT BEAT THE 11's and 22's

[skipperbob]

If your "FWIW" statement is true, then are the "bots" beating the game?

[Irieguy]

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If your "FWIW" statement is true, then are the "bots" beating the game?

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Yes, but apparently Party is pretty good at spotting them. I've heard a few stories about accounts being frozen for suspicion of this.

Also, my "system" is obviously a little bit of a simplification. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Irieguy.

[curtains]

Some players will play marginal hands a lot better than others. I would check the turn here, but thats just my style.

[Phil Van Sexton]

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I think that against a lot of players you can check the river and induce a completely naked bluff by them.

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This is true, but the villian in question has limped, checked, and called so far. That's the triple crown of weakness. With nothing else to go on, he doesn't seem like the kind of player to bluff with nothing.

I also believe the he has more than nothing. Other then A8, I can't think of a hand that he is playing like this where he only has a draw. AQ would've raised pre-flop. Q7-Q2 would've been folded pre-flop. I think he probably has a weak pair and draw. Something like, KT, 88, 77, or maybe QT (though I think most players bet on the flop with this).

He called the turn bet with another player still to act behind him. Therefore, I doubt he is calling Strassa down with A5. He has something.

Maybe he has A8 and would try a bluff if you check. I think he's just as likely to have KQ or A9 and is taking you for a ride. Most likely though, he has a marginal hand and will check behind if you check.

The question is, does Strassa's bet on the river get him to fold any of these marginal hands like KT or 88? Maybe. On the other hand, if he knows Strassa's reputation as an aggressive player, probably not. It depends. How's that for a cop out?

[Voltron87]

[ QUOTE ]
PS- FWIW, all the talk on this board about not getting involved early with marginal hands is absolutely, positively 100% correct at the limits in which those comments are being discussed, ie the $11's. You have such a ridiculous overlay on the bubble at those limits that you can achieve a 30%+ ROI by just folding for 3 levels and pushing for 3 levels. Once a good portion of the table understands how to steal blinds you need to play some more poker to beat the game. I think most of the higher limit players on this board understand that.

[/ QUOTE ]


Bah... what I was going to say.

Someone who plays 11s all day and tells someone who plays 109s and 215s will have different strategies because they are playing different opponents. At the 11s there are a ton fish who will not give you credit for a good hand while you are making a play, no matter how smart it is, and a tricky player will fall victim to FPS at low levels.

However at the 109 or 215 level people will think about the hand differently and can give you credit for a holding in ways low limit players will not, so you can play marginal hands in more creative ways if you are a smart and experienced player.

[Jason Strasser]

He ended up folding. I was trying to represent a nine. This is how I think I would play a nine.

-Jason

[Jman28]

[ QUOTE ]
He ended up folding. I was trying to represent a nine. This is how I think I would play a nine.


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except for the folding part.

[raptor517]

i think it applies to the 109s too. ppl play terrible in those. by folding for three rounds and pushing for three rounds you guarantee youreslf money there too. so no, its not completely wrong, even at the higher limits.

[AA suited]

[ QUOTE ]
He ended up folding. I was trying to represent a nine. This is how I think I would play a nine.

-Jason

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if you had trips on the turn, you would bet big on the river instead of value betting???