Moving down in stakes...?

[ggbman]

I have been having a rough time at the $10-20 tables recently. I feel the game is very beatable, but the cards havent been falling my way. It seems the worst possibly card in the deck falls every time, either scaring people away or ruining my hand. I have either been winning small pots or losing big ones with the big pocket pairs. AK/AQ don't and when they do i lose anyway. While i still have a more then sufficent bankroll for $10-$20, i am thinking about moving back down to $5-$10. It will be weird playing for less money, but i think it would be good to re-establish some confidence at a game i know i can crush. Who has had a similar experience, moving down even though you felt you could beat the game you were playing? Right now i think it would be a good idea to inflate my BR and give it a shot in a little while, there's no reason to risk not playing my A game because i run into a bad streak of cards when i move up. I had a similar experience a while back when i wanted to move from $2-$4 to $3-$6. I moved up for a bit, wasn't feelin great about it, moved back down and later made the transition very smoothly. What do you guys think?

[Alobar]

If you can beat the 10/20 and you have the bankroll for it, moving down is a mistake. Unless you cant play your A game while having a bad steak, in which case moving down is the smart thing to do, but I wouldnt move back up until I could over come that very big problem. If your bankroll is suffereing to the point where you are underolled, then moving down is definately smart.

[whodaman]

I would try to see if there is an actual difference between the 5-10 and 10-20 tables or if it is really just a bad run of cards... spend a few hours going over your pokertracker stats and see if people are calling your bluffs more, not paying you off...
It may be as simple as the cards haven't been falling the way they should, but I think it is easy possible that instead of having two or three solid players a table at 5-10 there are 4 solid players per table at 10-20 and this is cutting into your winnings

Good Luck
Mike

[ggbman]

I think one of the main considerations for me is how poker affects the rest of my life. Even though i am more then adequatly bankrolled for 10-20, it takes me a few hours to shake off a $1000 loss, it's still quite a lot of money to me. That said, a $1000 will be a lot to me for quite some time, but building up the BR at 5-10 where the swings aren't as bad doesnt seem like such a horrible idea. I did comb through some hand histories, and it's clear that a lot of my struggles are due to the cards. There are two tpes of hands that have been killing me.

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, MP folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (8 SB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB folds, BB folds, UTG folds.

Final Pot: 4.50 BB

No one gives me any action? Better then getting them cracked, but i can't seem to win big pots with my big pairs. But the hands that are really killing me are not the terrible beats, but the 7-10 outers. Obvioulsly they are going to hit the river 20% of the time, but i think in the last week it might be closer to 50%. Not much can be done about this, when i'm running good they will hti 5%. But hands like:

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, Button folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB folds, UTG calls.

Turn: (4 BB) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, Hero calls.

River: (8 BB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 10 BB

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
UTG has Jd Qh (flush, queen high).
Hero has Js Ks (one pair, jacks).
Outcome: UTG wins 10 BB. </font>

and

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG folds, MP folds, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, Hero calls, BB calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, Hero calls, BB calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, Button calls.

River: (7.50 BB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, Button folds, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11.50 BB

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
Hero has Js Kh (one pair, kings).
BB has Ah 4d (straight, five high).
Outcome: BB wins 11.50 BB. </font>

have been killing me lately. I think having my piece of the pie of these hands would make the difference. My win rate is a dismal .23bb/100 after 8,000 hands, which is a terribly small sample. I think i can beat these games for much more, but for now i may just build up some at 5-10 to reduce my swings.

[Gazza]

Sounds to me that the stakes are too high for you. You just feel uncomfortable playing for these sums. You cannot separate the chips from there real life purchasing value. If that is the case move back down and return when you have a massive Bankroll or feel less inhibited

Gazza

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]
Sounds to me that the stakes are too high for you. You just feel uncomfortable playing for these sums. You cannot separate the chips from there real life purchasing value. If that is the case move back down and return when you have a massive Bankroll or feel less inhibited

Gazza

[/ QUOTE ]

agreed

[stigmata]

I'm not sure about the whole "the stakes are too high for you". 8k hands is nothing, after all.

I started 5/10 really badly for 5k hands, and sure, the swing were nasty and affected me at first. It just takes some getting used to, right? Now, I can shrug off a major losing session, because I know I can beat the game on another day.

I think it takes a while to adapt to the swings at a higher level. Your not exactly losing money, and if you think its beatable &amp; you have the bankroll, I would say just keep plugging away at it. Its the only way your going to find out if you can beat it. Once you know you can beat it, the swings become less of an issue.

Also, I know what your saying about the downsings - always having second best hand in the big pots, but never hitting your big draws. Sound like it could just be screwy luck, but of course the prudent thing to do is to still question your gameplay.

[naphand]

Why do all the other posters treat this as a black &amp; white issue? You know, you can always play some of one and some of the other. 1 table of $10/$20 and 1-3 $5/$10 or some other combination like only $10/$20 on Friday nights (or whatever you think are the softest sessions).

As for PT. Endless poring over stats may help to convince you your game is solid, or it may lead nowhere. Look at comparable hands, see how you are playing each at the different limits. Consider if you have adjusted to the game from what you have read on this Forum, have you adjusted?

8K is nothing, but it is not a mistake to move back down because you are uncertain. This is a very psychological game and if your head is not in the right place then why not give yourself a check-up in a place you know is good. Maybe also try playing at some other sites, a fresh environment can help you look at the game from a less jaded perspective.

[Noodles]

in the 3rd hand why did you check the flop,and when the button did bet why did you just call and not reraise?

[usmfan]

[ QUOTE ]
in the 3rd hand why did you check the flop,and when the button did bet why did you just call and not reraise?

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. I play 5/10 but I would raise this. You gotta protect that K. A c/r sends a beautiful signal.

[kiddo]

Yes, this slowplay - or whatever it was - cost you the pot because I dont think this BB-guy would have called a raise with inside straight + 1 overcard. U gave him the odds to call flop. Big misstake.

Also, you must 3bet button when he stealraise, not coldcall. You want to take control and u want BB out. Big misstake.

You had 2 great chances to get BB out from this pot and now you are telling us he sucked out on you. Well...

[rory]

Why are you calling the river in hand #2?

[spider]

[ QUOTE ]
My win rate is a dismal .23bb/100 after 8,000 hands, which is a terribly small sample.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wait a minute. Over 8k hands you are having bad luck and still winning (breaking even) and you want to drop down???

How do you handle an actual losing streak? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Rubeskies]

3-bet preflop in hand 3. If you never cold-called a steal raise out of the small blind I don't believe you'd be making a mistake, especially against unknowns.

[J.R.]

[ QUOTE ]
If you never cold-called a steal raise out of the small blind I don't believe you'd be making a mistake, especially against unknowns.

[/ QUOTE ]

True, but on a higher level consider spots in very aggressive shorthanded games where the BB is loose and the opener is very aggressive yet still thoughtful (although you did say unkown 3-bettor). Keeping the BB in provides postflop strategic advantages, namely keeping the opener more in line (he is unikely to bluff v 2 players, one of whom is on the looser side of things). Many times with a loose enough BB you won't get it headsup, and are stuck in a 9sb+ pot with a crappy hand, and aggressive player in position and a loose guy in the middle (which eats at you bluff equity).

This is even more so with a marginal hand, one that is playable but not great headsup v. an aggro player in position (small pairs, perhaps suited connecting cards like JTs which might like to retain the flop or turn check-raise option if it catches TP but doesn't mind the BB's presence) and can get messy postflop when played out of positon v an aggro player following a 3-bet with a BB who is capable of calling your 3-bet with a wide enough range of hands so that you don't consistently get things heads'up.

But what you said is generally true, especially at 5-10, although there are also quite a number of "too loose" players who you don't want in the BB when considering a 3-bet with a marginal hand.

[turnipmonster]

I had similar issues moving to 6max. whenever you start a new game/level you are always going to be worried about whether or not you can beat it, and in general not have a lot of confidence. when you start off with a bad streak, any confidence you may have built up can be destroyed and it's natural to want to move down to a level you know you can crush.

some times when I've moved up I started off with a good streak and never looked back, and other times I started off with a bad one (compounded by poor play almost certainly) and had to move back down. it's not a big deal, just keep at it.

--turnipmonster

[ggbman]

Wow, i've had lot of great responses, as well as some questions put forth towards me so i will try to fit a lot of them into this post. One of the hot issues was my play check-calling the flop in one of the KJ hands. I should not that i almost always check-raise. My rational was as follows. I felt that both players were very passive calling stations and that i almost certainly hand the best hand. No dount raising the flop probably gets the BB out of the picture. But my question is, don't i want him chasing. Isn't good for me in the long run if i can get him to chase 7 outs and pay a flop and turn bet? There will be less variance playing this hand more straightforwardly, but i think i may win more in the long getting poor players to chase like this right? There was a comment asking me how i handle a real losing streak when i am actually about breaking even at the 10-20. Bear in mind that i was up 200 BB relativly quickly, and the losing streak i'm refering has me dropping those 200BB which i was orinially up. Now on to Naphands post; I like you idea of maybe playing some of both the 5-10 and the 10-20, i may well decide to do this. You touched upon the issue that concerns me, which is how pyschological poker is. When i am crushing a game, i am very confident. I don't worry about bad beats because i think to myself, "It's no biggie, these guys will give me the money back and more." I don't mean it sound arrogant, but i think all winning poker players are confident in their abilities. Like many other people, i tend to second guess myself more when i am in the middle of a downswing. What i really want to do is get myself back a great mindset so i can sit down with confidence knowing i can beat the game. I may also just play 2 tables of each to reduce the swings. Thanks for all the productive feedback. Does anyone have any feelings about the switch from 5-10 to 10-20 in terms of skill level? I will get used to the swings, but i want to feel out more how the play is different at these stakes. Thanks again!

Gabe

[threepines]

After reading your posts, I've gotten the sense that you bring a lot to the game. Specifically, you're motivated, aware, receptive to feedback, and you think well. You should be able to beat the 10-20 SH game. It's not easy to drop levels (though you've done it before). I would hang in there unless your bankroll comes under too much pressure. Good luck.

[ggbman]

Thank for the support, it is much appreciated. I decided to give Naphand's advice a go and decided to to play 2 tables of 5-10 and two of 10-20 today. I had a nice little win today up about $390, and it was all from the 10-20 tables ironically. I did very very well at one 5-10 table and made VERY GOOD second best hands at the other one every time. I cut the session a but short today because i felt that it would be a good idea to post a win for me psychologically. I have some hands that i'm going to review and i'll post them here in a bit for feedback.