a hand from the Bahamas WPT event

[Tyler Durden]

My opponent in this hand is Michael "The Grinder" Mizrachi, I think his name is The Grinder on Stars but I'm not sure. He won a Five Diamond event at Bellagio last month for a quarter mil, and he's made the final 27 in Tunica. Strong player. But I didn't know any of this while we were at the same table.

His image (at the time, remember I didn't know any of the aforementioned before this hand): pretty good player, tricky, but has lost some pots
My image: aggressive, playing a lot of pots, maybe a little wild. the only hand i have shown down is A3 from the SB for a turned boat.

Blinds 50-100. Level 2.

we started w/ t10k. he has about t8k, i have him slightly covered.

He opens the pot to t300 in MP. I flatcall from the SB w/ 77. Heads up pot.

Flop J-J-3 rainbow.

What is the best plan of attack? Check/raise? Check-call? Lead out? Cases can be made for each.

I appreciate the responses!

I'll write about the rest of the hand after I get some replies. thanks much.

[JaBlue]

I would lead out. I don't think checking will induce a bet from many good players (they realize that you realize how raggedy the flop is and that they are probably taking a stab at it). Also, I don't want to give a free card that will put me in limbo like, say, an ace on the turn. Lastly, I think this is probably the best way to induce a bluff-raise, and I don't see any reason to assume that you're behind yet.

[Lloyd]

Normally, I would lead out here. But you've got an image of being aggressive so I'm not sure if that's the right play. I'm not sure who first said it but "calling is the new raising". It's very powerful when an aggressive player just calls. Calls a raise pre-flop. Calls the flop bet. I would definitely pause and if I were him and didn't have a J or an overpair I'd be a little cautious.

So I think my plan is to check-call the flop with a plan of check-raising the turn.

[Rick Diesel]

I'd use almost the same strategy, except I would bet out on the turn on any non ace or 7.

[DonButtons]

Interesting hand.

Not a bad flop for 77.

The problem with making a bet at this flop, is he might reraise you with any small pocket pair, and might have you dump the best hand.

Soo many different ways to play out this hand.

Check-call flop/check-raise turn or 3/4 pot turn.

Weak lead flop, (what do you do to a reraise??)

1/2-3/4 bet flop

ehh, Ill get back at this hand in a little, have to go to one of my classes.

[Potowame]

I like it, You might even scare him off a over with the check raise on the turn. What else would you play that way, when you are not worried about giving two free cards or trying to take it down quickly /images/graemlins/wink.gif.

[KUjayhawk08]

The problem with check/calling then trying to checkraise the turn is that it will require putting a lot of chips in the pot rather early in the tournament. Call 500 or so on the flop then raise 800-1000 on the turn to 2000-3000? Checking the turn also allows him to take a free card, and although your hand seems good at this moment, it would be hard to call a substantial bet if a face card hits on the river. I personally like check/calling the flop (to slow him down a bit)then leading out on the turn. This puts only about 1500 at risk and makes it much easier to dump the hand in case he has you beat. That's the pessimistic side... it also makes it harder for him to call with 1010,99,88 or bluff with overcards.

These are just my first thoughts but I'm still not sure as to the preferred play.

[Rushmore]

[ QUOTE ]
Lastly, I think this is probably the best way to induce a bluff-raise,

[/ QUOTE ]

Goddamn, I can't think of anything I'd less rather do with this hand here.

If you bet out and he "bluff-raises," what is your plan? Call and check, so he can follow through on the turn, and then call him down? If so, is this dependent on the turn card?

[Rushmore]

Check-call the flop. This is scary to any good player who is paying attention. Bet out on the turn, roughly 2/3 the pot. This is exactly how a jack might play the hand. If he raises, you can confidently lay your hand down without having jeopardized too terribly many chips.

If he calls your turn bet, you should probably make a smallish blocking bet on the river(which will apear as a jack making a value bet to him), or just plain old essentially give the hell up, because if you check, he's very likely going to buy the pot.

Bad position. It's a bitch.

[MLG]

this is absolutely the way to play it for all the reasons you mentioned. Its much harder to get rebluffed on the turn than the flop.

[JaBlue]

The point of the play is the confidence in the read as a bluff-raise; would you really expect a jack to raise you here? If he raises, its either a bluff with overs or a PP higher than yours. Deciding which you think is most likely depends more specifically on your read from playing with this guy.

Also, if he smoothcalls, you can expect to be in trouble unless he is the kind that will attempt the delayed bluff. Even then, I'm probably dumping on the turn.

The main point is that I really hate letting it get checked behind here.

[MLG]

I dont think there is anything wrong with having it checked behind here. Granted, it gives you no information about his hand, but you do not want to be raised here. The fastest way to get knocked out of a tourney is to adhere to the he couldnt possibly have the hand he is representing philosophy. Plus, even if he does raise you, you are then basically putting in the third raise on a pure bluff if you think he is bluffing you. Either way, you have deep stacks, and you are sending a ton of chips in the middle in a marginal situation with a marginal read.

[Tyler Durden]

The Grinder has made the final 14 in Tunica, and he's in 4th place.

Daniel Negreanu is the chipleader and Chau Giang is in third.

Anyway, my standard online play here (but maybe it shouldn't be) is to c/r, and they usually fold. Now I see the disadvantages of that, it sucks to play a large pot out of position, etc., but honestly, they usually just fold and move on to the next hand.

So I checked, the Grinder bet just t325, I raised to t1100. He surprised/confused me by reraising here to t2200.

[slickpoppa]

I agree with Jayhawk and MLG that check-calling the flop and betting the turn is the best way to play this one. But would you still bet the turn regardless of whether an A or K hits?

[MLG]

im done if an A hits, im not sure about a K.

[Tyler Durden]

[ QUOTE ]
So I checked, the Grinder bet just t325, I raised to t1100. He surprised/confused me by reraising here to t2200.

[/ QUOTE ]

After some deliberation here I decided to call. I decided he probably didn't have a Jack and I could c/r the turn all-in to represent one. Risky for sure, but what do you think of this plan?

[augie00]

This is a terrifying situation. If you want to win the pot, a check-raise on the turn might be the only thing you can do. You might be up against another pair who thinks you're full of BS, but he'd have a hard time calling an all-in checkraise with anything but a jack, or maybe AA.

[Rushmore]

The more I consider the hand, the more I see why it sticks in your craw so bad.

I stand by what I originally said, though, which involves not putting too many of your chips into the middle with this hand. I'd say that is the most important thing; I mean, it's early, you got a guy betting at you like he's got a hand, and you have a middle pair.

This is not a spot where you want to get too involved.

But the need to accumulate chips while not being a total skirt dictates that you must make a play for the pot.

The check-call/bet out strategy really gives you the best of both worlds.

[zaxx19]

After some deliberation here I decided to call. I decided he probably didn't have a Jack and I could c/r the turn all-in to represent one. Risky for sure, but what do you think of this plan?

I think its the only and best way to play it if you are going to call his reraise on the flop. I actually like it its bold and it puts him to a huge decision on the turn with a tremendously strong looking checkraise after just calling(strong) that huge reraise on the flop. You are going to hopefully get alot of better hands to lay with the move, and that makes it worth making.

[Rushmore]

[ QUOTE ]
After some deliberation here I decided to call. I decided he probably didn't have a Jack and I could c/r the turn all-in to represent one. Risky for sure, but what do you think of this plan?

[/ QUOTE ]

Two problems with this plan:

1.) You don't KNOW that you can push him off a bigger pocket pair, and

2.) You don't KNOW that he doesn't hold AJ or 33.

Re: #2, I have doubled through an awful lot of guys you just would not believe that I raised trips when bet into on the flop. Sure, sometimes the bettor just folds--that's ok, he was going to check-fold the turn anyway. But when you run into a guy betting a middling hand (like here) and you raise his flop bet, MANY players will decide RIGHT THERE that you don't have a big hand.

Your line involves a full commitment. While I think it's definitely bold and noble, it's not the one I would choose.

[MLG]

Great post. I agree completely. If you're going to bluff this pot you need to engineer the hand so that the bluff is not for your entire stack.

[slickpoppa]

[ QUOTE ]
After some deliberation here I decided to call. I decided he probably didn't have a Jack and I could c/r the turn all-in to represent one. Risky for sure, but what do you think of this plan?

[/ QUOTE ]
What if he bets enough on the turn such that you couldn't possibly check-raise enough to make him fold?

[Tyler Durden]

[ QUOTE ]
What if he bets enough on the turn such that you couldn't possibly check-raise enough to make him fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

Excellent question. And he could just beat me to the punch by moving in after I check, and we all know it's kinda difficult to bluff a guy who's all in.

[Tyler Durden]

[ QUOTE ]
2.) You don't KNOW that he doesn't hold AJ or 33.

Re: #2, I have doubled through an awful lot of guys you just would not believe that I raised trips when bet into on the flop. Sure, sometimes the bettor just folds--that's ok, he was going to check-fold the turn anyway. But when you run into a guy betting a middling hand (like here) and you raise his flop bet, MANY players will decide RIGHT THERE that you don't have a big hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right, I don't KNOW. That's why it's risky, what can I do. I think I told you that I can't be accused of playing this hand well /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Tyler Durden]

[ QUOTE ]
After some deliberation here I decided to call. I decided he probably didn't have a Jack and I could c/r the turn all-in to represent one. Risky for sure, but what do you think of this plan?


[/ QUOTE ]

So this was my plan for the turn. Before I called the flop reraise I eyeballed his stack, it appeared to be 5500.

I'm all ready for the execution on the turn card.

It's an Ace.

Mother effer.

I check. He bets 1700 into a 4500 pot and has 3800 left and looks physically weak.

Follow through as planned? Or Abort! Abort!

[slickpoppa]

this hand is just a pants pisser on every street

[Tyler Durden]

[ QUOTE ]
this hand is just a pants pisser on every street

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL. You're tellin me!

[slickpoppa]

sounds like he might have KK or QQ, in which case the A is a great card for you. i dunno if i would have the balls to all-in check raise though.

[Tyler Durden]

[ QUOTE ]

sounds like he might have KK or QQ, in which case the A is a great card for you.

[/ QUOTE ]

But how could I have an Ace? Unless it was AJ or A3, and if it was AJ then the Ace doesn't really matter.

[slickpoppa]

You could have been overplaying AK or AQ, or have a J. Therefore, it should be very difficult for him to call an all-in with just QQ or KK. From his perspective, what could you possibly have that he beats, assuming he has QQ or KK? Basically all that he could beat is what you have, a middle pair. I think it would be difficult for him to make that call unless he has an A or J himself.

You play all depends on how confident you are in your read of his weakness and his ability to lay down a hand. Tough decision no doubt.

[MLG]

He could very easily have an A here though, thats what makes this card so bad.

[Rushmore]

[ QUOTE ]
You're right, I don't KNOW. That's why it's risky, what can I do. I think I told you that I can't be accused of playing this hand well

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure what I meant was not to call into question the line that you chose (although I do not prefer your line), but more to make the issue about reducing the downside even, perhaps, at the expense of a portion of the potential upside.

It was a tough spot, and I think that the chosen line simply magnified the danger.

Hey, what the hell--I cracked out of the same tourney holding a set of tens when I managed to give a gutshot a chance to spike.

You'll never guess what happened. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[Tyler Durden]

[ QUOTE ]

You could have been overplaying AK or AQ, or have a J.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think he can put me on AK or AQ, b/c I can't call his flop reraise w/ those hands.

[slickpoppa]

[ QUOTE ]
He could very easily have an A here though, thats what makes this card so bad.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I realize that, and thats why I qualified it with "if he has QQ or KK." And Tyler said he sensed weakness, so I'm trying to take that into account. And even if he does have an A, he still could be scared off by the jacks. The biggest problem, though, is that the pot has gotten so big now that it might be impossible to bluff the guy off of any hand.

I'm just trying to throw out there the somehwat strong possibilty that he has QQ or KK, which seems reasonably in line with how he played the hand.

[djhoneybear]

If I'm in his shoes I would put you on a medium pair. With AJ an aggressive player (your image) might reraise before the flop. I might be worried that you hit trips with 3s or a hand like JT suited but thats about it.

If I'm you I would put him on AT or higher or a pocket pair tens or higher. If it were my play after the flop, I would lead out with a smallish bet. This might scare him into thinking you are enticing him to get involved. Nothing should scare him more than a weak play from an agressive player. If he comes over the top of you I would probably dump the hand.

Of course I've been playing tournaments for a month but its my two cents.

[Tyler Durden]

The Ace scared me, I almost pissed myself. So I folded. He won the pot. And showed his hand.

[Benal]

Well you gonna tell us what he had?

[willie]

[ QUOTE ]
The Ace scared me, I almost pissed myself. So I folded. He won the pot. And showed his hand.

[/ QUOTE ]


and shooooowed?

that's a tough hand man

[Tyler Durden]

He had KQ.

[Rushmore]

[ QUOTE ]
He had KQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now I am freakin PISSED.

[Tyler Durden]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He had KQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now I am freakin PISSED.

[/ QUOTE ]

Told ya he looked weak after betting the turn.

I was none too pleased man, none too pleased.

I was like "so, you were LYING?"

[Rushmore]

[ QUOTE ]


Quote:
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Quote:
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He had KQ.


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Now I am freakin PISSED.


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Told ya he looked weak after betting the turn.

I was none too pleased man, none too pleased.

I was like "so, you were LYING?"

[/ QUOTE ]

I hate being straight-up outplayed on a hand, especially when I have all the bases covered and feel like I had a handle on the situation.

Happens all the damned time, too.

All of that said, he played the hand tough. He earned the pot.

[Drac]

[ QUOTE ]
He had KQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ouch! Great story/learning experience for those of us playing in the $30 MTT's. Sorry it was bad for you but that was one good tale.

[drexah]

personally in this situation i would lead out. probably call a raise and check/raise the turn. if it goes check/check id probably lead out the river if there wasn't an overcard.