Have you ever been berated because of SSH? Hand post...

[Prelude008]

Hi,

I was just berated at my 3-6 table for the hand that I am posting. Can you please give me your thoughts about my play of this hand.

I only ask because I won the hand and one of the players who lost the hand called me an idiot, he said I was stupid for chasing a gutshot, then I became a moron who was advised to read books, especially on odds. I just finished SSH and they concept of not folding in large pots was on my mind during this hand.

3/6 Texas Hold-Em

UTG+1 raises to 6

Hero calls (UTG+2) with [ 7h, 7s ]
SB raises to 9

UTG+1 calls (3)
Hero calls 3

Pot = $27 (9 bets)

** Dealing Flop ** : [ Ah, 9c, 6d ]
SB bets (3)
UTG+1 calls (3)
HERO calls (3)

Pot = $36 (12 bets)

** Dealing Turn ** : [ 5h ]
SB_1 bets (6)
UTG+1 raises (12) to 12
HERO calls (12)
SB calls (6)

Pot is $76

I am thinking that I have 4 outs for a straight (8) or 2 outs for a set (7) which I felt would have been good

** Dealing River ** : [ 8d ]
SB_1 bets (6)
UTG+1 calls (6)
HERO raises (12) to 12
SB_1 calls (6)
UTG+1 calls (6)

** Summary **

Main Pot: $108 | Rake: $3
Board: [ Ah 9c 6d 5h 8d ]
SB had [ Kc Ac ] [ a pair of aces -- Ac,Ah,Kc,9c,8d ]
UTG+1 had [ As 6s ] for[ two pairs, aces and sixes -- As,Ah,9c,6s,6d ]

HERO collected $108 [ 7h 7s ] [ a straight, five to nine -- 9c,8d,7h,6d,5h ]

Comments or suggestions? Am I am applying some of the SSH concepts correctly. Thanks.

[edtost]

why did you see the turn?

[private joker]

They were right to criticize you for chasing. Fold that flop 100% of the time. There are two overcards to your pair, and you're not getting anywhere near the odds to catch a 2-outer.

[Prelude008]

Looking for a 7 for the set and there was the backdoor straight that was possible.

[private joker]

[ QUOTE ]
Looking for a 7 for the set and there was the backdoor straight that was possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

Anything is "possible." Doesn't mean you have odds to see it. The backdoor straight is about 1 out, and the set is 2 outs. And even if you hit your set, it's not the nuts. But let's give you 3 whole outs. You need to be getting 15:1, and you're not getting it. Fold the flop.

[Ten7offsuit]

Fold this preflop, it's not worth two bets to try to flop a set against 1 or 2 other players.

Fold to the flop bet, there are way to many hands that already have you beat and you're not likely to improve.

On the turn you have six outs, but you're only getting 4.5/5 to 1, which is too expensive to see the river.

[Lurker4]

Yeah, this not applying SSHE correctly and I think they were right to criticize you. I fold PF, on the flop, and on the turn. On another note I have been criticized by a fish for playing SSHE-style. I had A /images/graemlins/heart.gifJ /images/graemlins/heart.gif on something like a T /images/graemlins/heart.gif9 /images/graemlins/club.gif5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif board and bet-3bet the flop in a 3 or 4 way pot. I turned or rivered the nut flush and won the pot, Fish shows down a lone 5 and starts berating me for 3-betting A-high on the flop (he capped w/bottom pair) /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[young nut]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi,

I was just berated at my 3-6 table for the hand that I am posting. Can you please give me your thoughts about my play of this hand.

I only ask because I won the hand and one of the players who lost the hand called me an idiot, he said I was stupid for chasing a gutshot, then I became a moron who was advised to read books, especially on odds. I just finished SSH and they concept of not folding in large pots was on my mind during this hand.


[/ QUOTE ]

sorry to say this, but you misapplied the large pot chasing concept entirely. I think you need to go back and read the section on counting your outs, which is one of the most important sections to understand. The way you played this hand was not by calculating odds to stay in. You basically just played it like a fish, telling yourself, "well I might hit my 3 outer by the river." You must dispell that way of thought, or your money will be in others hands before you know it.

I suggest a good long reread of SSH. sorry to be so blunt about this, but if you go reread the book thoroughly then come back and read your own post, you will see why.

[Prelude008]

Thanks for the info. I do see that I made a major mistake in calling the flop, which compounded itself on the other streets.

I did a initial once through read of SSH and I am definitely going back to reread it and digest all the info. And believe it or not, I have tighted up since reading it :-) My VP$IP number is 20.5 but I do make bad calls (i.e. this hand) from time to time.

Before I came to 2+2 I had never heard of things like SSH or PT. I feel that I am on the right track to improving and am in the right environment. Thanks again. Will start rereading tomorrow.

[jason_t]

Fold Preflop: Playing a low pocket pair against an early position raiser with so many people left to act behind you is a reciple for disaster.

Fold Flop: You almost certainly don't have the best hand. You have at most three outs. You need better than 12:1 to chase that. At least you're closing the action.... If there were players left to act behind you, your call would be even worse.

Fold Turn: Okay, we picked up some outs. But UTG+1 is now forcing you to call two cold. You have at most six outs. UTG could reraise. I think you have to fold here.

River: Good.

Reread SSH.

[KidNapster]

<font color="red">FOLD THE FLOP</font>

[PotatoStew]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, this not applying SSHE correctly and I think they were right to criticize you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, they were foolish to criticize him... because of that, he questioned himself, sought help, and now he'll correct his mistake. If they had kept their mouths shut, the original poster would still be chasing cards without proper odds.

[IndieMatty]

[ QUOTE ]
** Dealing Flop ** : [ Ah, 9c, 6d ]
SB bets (3)
UTG+1 calls (3)
HERO calls (3)

[/ QUOTE ]

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOO!

[jonahmavesin]

Seriously. That is my biggest pet peeve EVER. /images/graemlins/mad.gif

[Derek in NYC]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the info. I do see that I made a major mistake in calling the flop, which compounded itself on the other streets.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your error did not "compound itself on the other streets". You made wholly independent errors on the flop and turn that reflect a lack of understanding about simple pot odds calculations.

[colgin]

[ QUOTE ]
They were right to criticize you for chasing.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, they were wrong to criticize him for chasing. Why would you want to correct your opponent's mistakes. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[jskills]

Folding preflop to the raise might be the best way to go here, but since you're in the hand ...

Calling the flop doesn't seem to compute ...

The river is fine of course. Let people berate you all they want. I'm not sure many people would play the hand this way, but don't let people who lose to you have any effect on you at all /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[frank_iii]

Why are you playing $3/$6?

You should clearly be playing $2/$4.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
They were right to criticize you for chasing.

[/ QUOTE ]

They were effing morons for criticizing him. Or anyone else for that matter.

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
and I think they were right to criticize you.

[/ QUOTE ]

No they weren't. They were idiots for criticizing him. Not even close to right in their actions to him.

Do you criticize people too?

b

[private joker]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
They were right to criticize you for chasing.

[/ QUOTE ]

They were effing morons for criticizing him. Or anyone else for that matter.

b

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously. And this point has been made clear several times in this thread. But to say someone was "right to criticize" you means their judgment was correct poker whereas yours was not; in the real world, it is "wrong" to make a "right" criticism. Are we going to continue beating the dead horse about not tapping the glass? It's getting old. We all know not to do it, I hope.

[djoyce003]

Pretty awful. I wouldn't even call the flop bet. You aren't getting anywhere near the implied odds I think to call a UTG raise here, because that raise is going to fold most of the people out of the pot and you aren't getting the implied odds. Your flop call is pretty bad as well. You called $12 into about a 60 pot or 5:1 on the turn which is also bad/marginal for 6 outs which aren't all clean because of flush possibilities, and the straight isn't the nuts. So yeah, you played that just like a fish would and sucked out, congrats.

[djoyce003]

I forgot....ironically you probably were berated because of SSH because someone appropriately applying it's principles just got sucked out on by you playing like a fish, but you were berated for reasons other than the ones you thought.

[FishNChips]

I think you get the point...

Congratulations on your newfound dedication to learning and improving!

I've read SSH twice cover to cover, read the entire PostFlop play section 4 times and still screw parts of it up. My Poker game will never be perfect, I just expect it to improve each day.

FishNChips

ps... once you're smart enough to know that some fish chasing a 2 outer on an A-high flop after a 3bet PF who hits his backdoor straight draw is totally wrong, remember this incident and simply type "nh" or nothing at all.

[bernie]

If you start by never being the 1st to coldcall a raise preflop, that's an improvement.

Begin by studying the hell out of preflop play. After all, it will be the most common situations you'll ever be in.

[ QUOTE ]
I only ask because I won the hand and one of the players who lost the hand called me an idiot,

[/ QUOTE ]

He's a moron who doesn't understand what the hell he's doing at a table and where the money comes from. Period.

[ QUOTE ]
he said I was stupid for chasing a gutshot,

[/ QUOTE ]

You were. So what? He was exponentially stupider in pointing it out to you.

b

[BottlesOf]

1. Who cares what they say?
2. You might want to re-read it.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
Are we going to continue beating the dead horse about not tapping the glass? It's getting old. We all know not to do it, I hope.

[/ QUOTE ]

2 responses said they were 'right' in saying something. Dead horse? Yeah, for those that know better.

[ QUOTE ]
But to say someone was "right to criticize" you means their judgment was correct poker whereas yours was not;

[/ QUOTE ]

Look at this line above, and think of the situation and see if it applies. Or how it can be interpreted given this thread.

In the context of table chat, it's wrong. And the fact that they do it in that context is not correct poker. Their judgement sucked in saying this. Playing poker doesn't end when the pot is pushed.

That said, I know what you're getting at. I don't see it applying to this table coach. His intent isn't to 'help' the player, but to belittle him and show his false superiority. He's right to 'think' it, but not say it. Which is what I think you're trying to say.

When someone says they are right to criticize when the situation is a player being berated, it is directly linked to the confrontation unless otherwise noted.

This will always come up when new posters cycle in. Probably even more-so now that the forum gains more and more new posters. We will see a wave of shortterm high winrate experts, know-it-alls and table coaches.

Just like many of the other dead horse/redundant concepts that are gone over time and again. I don't assume that everyone 'knows better'. Many don't.

b

[VBM]

your math is a bit off.

on the turn, there is $36 in the pot, or 6 BB

SB leads,
UTG+1 raises
=
9BB + 1, if you expect SB will call.

2BB to you, for 10BB is 1:5, and your 6 outs (which may not be 6 full outs if there's a /images/graemlins/heart.gif draw) and 44 unseen cards is about 1:7.5 (it's a little bit lower than that, but it's clear that your 1:5 proposition is not enough for a 1:7.5 shot)

you're also not closing the action, and if SB 3-bets and UTG+1 caps, your odds are much worse but you must continue.


i wouldn't concern myself with what those nimrods are babbling about. i turn off table-chat myself b/c i find it distracting; but take your time and the table and try to count your outs accurately and you'll have a much easier time.

best of luck,
--oj.

[bernie]

Yes I have been berated for playing a hand when I have played it right.

The most common is when they try to make you look like an idiot for raising on the 'come'.

Another great one is the hidden ones. You have a decent draw one way, but hit the b-door draw or seemingly 3 outer. They only see the runner draw/miracle card and get blinded by that effect on their ego that they miss that you had a solid draw the whole way.

You can just fry an egg on their head.

b

[private joker]

Bernie I am not defending the table coaches' actions. Do not tap the glass. I'm trying to help the 2+2 poster by telling him he played the hand poorly. When I said they were "right" to criticize him, I am saying they were right IN their criticism, meaning their logic and poker skills were correct. They were wrong in their actions to criticize him, but that's not what we're talking about. How can it be?

What good does it tell the 2+2 poster that the table was wrong to tap on the glass and inform him he sucks? That's mean. We're here to help each other. If you want to create a different thread to inform 2+2ers not to tap the glass, go right ahead. But every person here who is telling the OP that the other guys were "right" means that they were correct about him misplaying the hand. We just want the OP to realize that he misplayed it.

[bernie]

I learned long ago on this forum to clarify stuff when it could be misinterpreted. There are many others reading, many that don't post, who may not know better. Don't think that just because people post/lurk on the forum that they don't do this at the table even though they should know better.

I put in there that I got what you were getting at.

[ QUOTE ]
What good does it tell the 2+2 poster that the table was wrong to tap on the glass and inform him he sucks?

[/ QUOTE ]

So when he gets to that point he doesn't do it himself and understands why he shouldn't do it? It's not mean at all. What would be mean was just a response saying, "Yeah, you suck. They shouldn't have said anything, fishboy. Get on my table." Along with nothing about how to improve.

[ QUOTE ]
But every person here who is telling the OP that the other guys were "right" means that they were correct about him misplaying the hand. We just want the OP to realize that he misplayed it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why even mention the table coaches actions at all?

In all the responses/posts I've done, I don't think I've ever condoned an open criticism (even in terms of his thinking instead of his actually saying it) from a table coach in an effort to help another player. I will never give those A-Holes that credit in any way, shape or form. They are pricks, cancers of the table is a better phrase, who shouldn't be given credit for anything.

You can easily do it without even mentioning his actions. In mentioning his actions, and criticizing is a direct action toward a player, you now link it, which can thus be seen as him being justifiable in his saying something.

There's a difference between, "He was right, you played it wrong." and "He was right to criticize you."

Again, not saying you meant it that way at all, but look at how it can be read. At first glance, one is easily looked at as support for an open action, not a thought process.

This is actually one of the rare threads I remember seeing anyone say, 'he was right to criticize you'. Regardless of intent.

b

[elindauer]

Hi Prelude,

Your opponent is wrong to complain, but right in his point. You played this hand very badly.

First, you shouldn't have called the preflop raise. Then you should have folded the flop. Then, you should have folded the turn. Good raise on the river though. :P

You're likely playing too high for your ability.


Good luck.
Eric


poker lessons: www.ericlindauer.com/poker.html (http://www.ericlindauer.com/poker.html)

[Prelude008]

Ok, I clearly see that my play of this hand was very "fish like". And since no one wants to be thought of as a fish, I would like to add, for what it's worth, that my PT stats (over 13K hands between 3/6 and 5/10) put my VP$IP at around 20.5/21%. So hopefully, that distances me somewhat from the fishy stats :-) But yes that hand was very "fishy".

Do I have leaks that I am working on? Yes, quite a few.
Do I make some bad calls/out of position plays? Yes, part of my leaks.
Am I trying to plug them up? Yes - by reading and using the 2+2 forms.

As far as the table comments, there was nothing constructive about them. The guy was pissed because he lost the hand. There is nothing constructive or helpful in asking someone if they are a moron. Sorry, can't make the connection. I've been at tables with real fish making even worse draw outs. My comment to them is NH. Keep them happy and keep them playing. After I raked in my pot :-), I simply added a note on that player that "he thinks that I am complete fish that can't play".

P.S. I am a female. Lots of references to him in this post. Thanks.

[Prelude008]

Eric,

I'm glad I made ONE good play :-)

[jskills]

I agree with you. Why ever criticize anyone? If they played poorly, you want to reinforce that behavior, as in "nice hand".

[XXXXING FISH]

I play like that all the time. People like me more.

[bernie]

As bad as this hand was played, I don't make concrete judgements based on 1 hand. 2nd or 3rd hand in a relative short time and a player is then pegged subjecct to reevaluation at a later time.

[ QUOTE ]
I simply added a note on that player that "he thinks that I am complete fish that can't play".


[/ QUOTE ]

Also add that there is a big gap in his really knowing how to make money on the table. His comments show this gap.

[ QUOTE ]
I am a female. Lots of references to him in this post.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not sure where you're going with this.

Have a good one.

b