an unfounded TJ Cloutier rumor

[TStoneMBD]

note: i dont intend to diminish TJ Cloutier's reputation in any way. i have no idea how reliable the rumor truly is.

today at a poker table, an unreliable source told me that someone told him the following rumor:

TJ Cloutier apparently was selling action of his WSOP entry fee. He was collecting 2500$ for 1/4 of his action into the 10k event. Apparently, he overbankrolled himself by collecting more than the appropriate entry fee into the WSOP, and in turn dumped off his chips to assure he did not make the money, causing him to pay back his debt, and therefore pocketed a hefty profit.

The rumor certainly seems like a doable scam. I have no idea if this was actually done by Cloutier or not. Has anyone heard of this rumor from any other sources or is it completely unfounded?

[PoBoy321]

This is the plot of The Producers. Almost to a T. Just replace "poker tournament" with "broadway play" and it's 100%, the exact same thing, so it seems unlikely that TJ would be doing this, although it IS a very doable scam.

The plot of the producers was that these guys decided to put on a play and get over-invested, then put on a shitty play so that they could pocket the difference since they wouldn't have any profit to pay back. It gets funny because their awful play turns out to be a hit and they get caught.

[binions]

Cloutier wants to win that tournament more than life itself -- I doubt the rumor. However, a man in dire financial straits will do anything for money. So it's possible I guess.

[Daliman]

I've heard this rumor before regarding TJ about a different tourney. That story went that he was in great chip position then started dumping off his chips. Another side of this story also says this is another part of how he got into debt, among another thing. Dunoo if it's true, could be reaching Urban Legend status tho.

[Jim T]

[ QUOTE ]
This is the plot of The Producers. Almost to a T. Just replace "poker tournament" with "broadway play" and it's 100%, the exact same thing, so it seems unlikely that TJ would be doing this, although it IS a very doable scam.

The plot of the producers was that these guys decided to put on a play and get over-invested, then put on a shitty play so that they could pocket the difference since they wouldn't have any profit to pay back. It gets funny because their awful play turns out to be a hit and they get caught.

[/ QUOTE ]

A variation was also done in the book The Fountainhead. There is a reason that this scam keeps popping up in fiction - because it happens in real life.

Did TJ do it? I have no idea.

[3rdEye]

[ QUOTE ]


A variation was also done in the book The Fountainhead. There is a reason that this scam keeps popping up in fiction - because it happens in real life.

Did TJ do it? I have no idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

That happened in The Fountainhead? I love Ayn Rand, and I've read that book 3 or 4 times, and I can't remember a scam of that nature. It's been a while; can you refresh my memory?

[Michael Davis]

"an unreliable source told me that someone told him the following rumor"

I'd take it to the bank.

90% or more of things I've heard at the casino about any subject under the sun have been false.

-Michael

[Aceshigh7]

Nope, this story is untrue. TJ is fully backed. He has no need to sell pieces of himself for the WSOP main event. He has backers already that pay his way into every tournament on the tour.

[private joker]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is the plot of The Producers. Almost to a T. Just replace "poker tournament" with "broadway play" and it's 100%, the exact same thing, so it seems unlikely that TJ would be doing this, although it IS a very doable scam.

The plot of the producers was that these guys decided to put on a play and get over-invested, then put on a shitty play so that they could pocket the difference since they wouldn't have any profit to pay back. It gets funny because their awful play turns out to be a hit and they get caught.

[/ QUOTE ]

A variation was also done in the book The Fountainhead. There is a reason that this scam keeps popping up in fiction - because it happens in real life.


[/ QUOTE ]

See also Spike Lee's masterpiece:

http://www.cinema-city.com/bamboozled.jpg

[TheCroShow]

omg we should call him the matador! /end sarcasm

[Ragnar]

3rd Eye asks about the portion of The Fountainhead involving overselling of rights. Developers go to Howard Roark to ask him to design a resort in the Monadnock Valley. He builds it and it becomes a great success. However, the promoters oversold shares in it and hired Roark because they had read that he was a bad architect in the columns of Ellsworth Toohey. The story is at the very beginning of part four in the novel.

Ragnar

[3rdEye]

[ QUOTE ]
3rd Eye asks about the portion of The Fountainhead involving overselling of rights. Developers go to Howard Roark to ask him to design a resort in the Monadnock Valley. He builds it and it becomes a great success. However, the promoters oversold shares in it and hired Roark because they had read that he was a bad architect in the columns of Ellsworth Toohey. The story is at the very beginning of part four in the novel.

Ragnar

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah, I remember that now. Thanks. Guess I need to reread that book anyway.

[freemont]

[ QUOTE ]
This is the plot of The Producers. Almost to a T. Just replace "poker tournament" with "broadway play" and it's 100%, the exact same thing, so it seems unlikely that TJ would be doing this, although it IS a very doable scam.

The plot of the producers was that these guys decided to put on a play and get over-invested, then put on a shitty play so that they could pocket the difference since they wouldn't have any profit to pay back. It gets funny because their awful play turns out to be a hit and they get caught.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, but really who could blame them? I'd expect a musical to fail where the chorus of the main song was:

"It's spring time for Hitler in Germany...."

3rd eye might have to reread the fountainhead, but I think I need to rewatch the producers /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Dan Mezick]

This is a commonly understood con-technique of many backed players who are lacking in integrity.

You might consider being very careful about attaching names to accusations like this. If you want to discuss the technique, why not say 'PersonX' or similiar?

Rather than discussing backing players, it appears your true objective with this post is to call this player's integrity into question.

I believe Matt would do well to delete this post.

[feelixthegreek]

I trust "Ragnar" is an Atlas Shrugged reference. He was more interesting than Galt.

[TStoneMBD]

dan, i tried very hard to show that i dont want to diminish the integrity of TJ Cloutier. i specified that the source that i received this information from was very unreliable, and therefore most likely untrue. however, i wanted to see if anyone else heard any similiar rumors regarding TJ and if in fact they were true.

[jedi]

[ QUOTE ]
dan, i tried very hard to show that i dont want to diminish the integrity of TJ Cloutier. i specified that the source that i received this information from was very unreliable, and therefore most likely untrue. however, i wanted to see if anyone else heard any similiar rumors regarding TJ and if in fact they were true.

[/ QUOTE ]

Honestly, why did you even bring this up? Your post title contains the word "unfounded" and "rumor" and should have never been posted. If you were really curious, you could have asked in a general, hypothetical terms: "Have you heard of any poker pro who did this:" and you probably would have gotten answers about Dutch Boyd.

I know you were curious, but the mere fact that your source is less than reliable probably falls into the category of one of the things that shouldn't have been posted.

[other1]

This is exactly how baseless rumors like this get propogated. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[Easy E]

Or am I misinterpreting unfounded as "I know it doesn't hold water"?

Did you mean to say unproven or second-hand or something?

[sternroolz]

The technique you describe has happened before. Several times according to rumors, gossip, etc.

However, someone like TJ can get backed any time, anywhere. The guy is one of the best TOURNAMENT players of all time, of legendary status. His reputation is such that he could probably get staked for the next 2-3 years without placing in the money once(after that, the reputation may change some).

I hardly believe he needs to piece himself out like you describe.

[kemystery]

I heard from a 'somewhat' questionable source that ol' TJ likes to roll a 'little' dice.

anyone anyone ............... Bueller

[Jim T]

[ QUOTE ]
I heard from a 'somewhat' questionable source that ol' TJ likes to roll a 'little' dice.

anyone anyone ............... Bueller

[/ QUOTE ]

That one is pretty much true. From a 'somewhat' reputable source, Barry Greenstein:

"Weakness: A seven on the craps table at the wrong time

Conventional wisdom is that T. J.’s non-poker gambling has limited his monetary success."

Barry on TJ (http://www.barrygreenstein.com/tjcloutier.htm)

[Anadrol 50]

I saw TJ at Boragta meet an eager fan, then ask him for $100 five minutes later. The fan gave it to him. After that I saw him in the horse racing yelling about a horse.

[kemystery]

Andy Bloch on TJ:

Authored by: AndyBloch on Sunday, September 26 2004 @ 02:42 PM PDT
The post makes all too much sense. You're not fully initiated to the tournament circuit until TJ asks to borrow money. Ordinarily, I'd say that this kind of post is inappropriate, but TJ has "borrowed" from so many people that such a post could be considered a valuable public service.

And TJ is one of the worst craps players ever. There are ways to play craps to keep your expected loss to less than 1% and maximize your comps, but not the way TJ plays.

Authored by: AndyBloch on Monday, September 27 2004 @ 12:23 PM PDT
There's not much of a story to be told. TJ has a long history of "borrowing" $300 to $500 or so from almost anyone he knows and then playing craps with it. I put borrowing in quotes because what TJ really means when he asks for money is, "Will you give the casino $300 so I can play craps for an hour or two?" Is he broke? I don't know, but if you added up all the money he owes he might be.

I wonder if he has an addiction to craps and sometimes he deals with it by only allowing himself to play with "borrowed" money.
WPTFan (http://www.wptfan.com/article.php?story=20040926022643517)