Was I up against 3 maniacs? Or what?

[jimcrow2]

-----------------------------------------------------
Game #702463722 - $0.10/$0.20 Texas Hold'em - 2005/01/25-19:33:58.5 (CST)
Table "Alonissos" (real money) -- Seat 8 is the button
Seat 1: Chiprazor ($3.50 in chips)
Seat 3: elmira7 ($72.99 in chips)
Seat 4: MonctonAces ($3.65 in chips)
Seat 6: santita ($3.90 in chips)
Seat 7: cocamojoe ($1.95 in chips)
Seat 8: BigBobNC ($4.95 in chips)
Seat 9: the1don ($4.05 in chips)
Seat 10: george r ($8.45 in chips)
the1don : Post Small Blind ($0.05)
george r: Post Big Blind ($0.10)
Dealing...
Dealt to elmira7 [ 7d ]
Dealt to elmira7 [ Kd ]
Chiprazor: Call ($0.10)
elmira7 : Call ($0.10)
MonctonAces: Call ($0.10)
santita : Fold
cocamojoe: Fold
BigBobNC: Call ($0.10)
the1don : Call ($0.05)
george r: Check
*** FLOP *** : [ 2s Kh Qd ]
the1don : Check
george r: Check
Chiprazor: Check
elmira7 : Bet ($0.10)
MonctonAces: Raise ($0.20)
BigBobNC: Fold
the1don : Raise ($0.30)
george r: Fold
Chiprazor: Raise ($0.40)
elmira7 : Call ($0.30)
MonctonAces: Call ($0.20)
the1don : Call ($0.10)
*** TURN *** : [ 2s Kh Qd ] [ 9c ]
the1don : Check
Chiprazor: Check
elmira7 : Check
MonctonAces: Check
*** RIVER *** : [ 2s Kh Qd 9c ] [ 5h ]
the1don : Check
Chiprazor: Check
elmira7 : Check
MonctonAces: Check
*** SUMMARY ***
Pot: $2.10 | Rake: $0.10
Board: [ 2s Kh Qd 9c 5h ]
<font color="red"> </font> /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[jimcrow2]

I know this post isn't easy to read. Next time I'll condense my posts.
But I did mark (on the converter link) that I wanted the bets in color. That would help!!! But I don't know why it didn't do it. I shall have to experiment.
Thanks anyway very much, if anyone does try to read this.
The point is: those three guys were raising and raising on the flop, and they only had QUEENS (and there was a KING on the flop, which made my hand KINGS). But I got so rattled, thinking they had a set or.....that I checked all the rest of the way (I think I should have bet on the River, though,
after checking the Turn). /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[jimcrow2]

This Post is clear as MUD. I('ll redo it - SORRY. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[AncientPC]

Paradise Poker 0.10/0.20 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, Hero calls, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, Button folds, <font color="#CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>, BB folds, <font color="#CC3333">UTG caps</font>, Hero calls, MP1 calls, SB calls.

Turn: (11 BB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks, MP1 checks.

River: (11 BB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks, MP1 checks.

Final Pot: 11 BB

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
UTG doesn't show.
Hero has 7d Kd (one pair, kings).
MP1 doesn't show.
SB doesn't show.
Outcome: Hero wins 11 BB. </font>

[jimcrow2]

Thanks, AncientPC, for posting my hand the correct way.
Your name - AncientPC - is known to me, for I have read many of your posts on 2+2.

I'll just have to learn how to use the Options on the BisonBison converter. I was just so happy to find that I could actually figure out the Copy-Paste part of the operation.
Many thanks again, AncientPC. Perhaps I'll try to post the same hand again with the question I want to ask. Very busy (as all of us are) - trying to learn the Poker Tracker too.

[slickterp]

one of the maniacs here is you. playing K7 suited from UTG +1? bush league.

[jimcrow2]

Thanks for reading my post and answering it, Terp. Yes,
you're absolutely correct - UTG+1 is a very poor position to play K7suited. Sometimes (being a beginner) I forget to consider my position (and my opponents' positions),
Thanks again for reminding me (P.S. I was lucky, though - I
won. But I was still wrong. /images/graemlins/blush.gif <font color="red"> </font>

[bolgenmod]

Let me take a stab at analyzing why they might have capped the flop with only queens, although more information about exactly what they held would be helpful -- did they all have queens? and what else -- if they had other draws, their raises would make more sense.

I agree that calling in UTG + 1 with K7s was pretty loose, but hey it's .10/.20 and (probably) your funeral. The reason you don't want to call even 10 cents with such a hand is that even if you do get a good flop (like you did - top pair), you don't know where you stand (like you did - no kicker). You were correct to bet out with top pair, but you had no kicker and only a backdoor flush draw. If someone raises you, you don't know where you are -- do they have a king with better kicker? An OESD? A strong queen (eg with an ace kicker)? Someone with a king with a slightly better kicker (an 8 let's say) would probably just call, fearing the weakness of his own kicker. So you'd be beat from the flop and never know it. That's the problem with hitting the flop but with a weak kicker.

If the other players only had queens without any other draws, it's hard to see why they would have reraised. Maybe they all thought everyone else was bluffing. Or maybe one or two of them did have draws. For example, if I had an A-J, I'm raising on that flop (but I probably would have raised before the flop, depending on my position). And if any of them had A-Q, of course they would raise (although again they might have raised before the flop), hoping that you didn't actually have a K and that their Q was best and maybe their A would pair too. At the low limits, people with Aces and NOTHING ELSE sometimes call to the river, hoping to pair. It's microlimit Internet -- they could have anything or nothing and may have NO IDEA why they're raising -- It's fun!! It's easy!! It's the WRONG BUTTON!!

This is why you need to look at their play. If you know that someone would play aggressively with a middle pair, you can guess that they might not have another K. And with 1 K on the board and 1 in your hand, the odds are pretty good that not even one of your enemies has one of the other two. And even if the worst happens -- that both are out in other players' hands -- all THREE of your flop raisers can't have kings!

But if I were playing, I would assume at least one of them had a K with a better kicker, one with a strong draw (probably OESD since the board is 3 suited), and the third could have anything from a total monster (3 queens? again, no raise before the flop, but some people don't even raise with KK for fear of an A flopping!) to total garbage. Without knowing something about the other players, you have to assume you're beat in one place at least, but not necessarily all 3.

So on the turn, it was certainly right to slow down. One of the raisers could have had you beat on the flop. And the 9, although it makes flushes impossible, is a bad card. The 9 could have completed the low end of a straight. And since many will play a K-9 or Q-9, you could be looking at two pair. Since both SB and UTG not only check-raised, but 3-bet and capped, you can't trust their checks here -- they might be hoping that you or MP1 will bet out so they can reraise again. Or they might be scared by all the betting too, and figure their hands are beat.

But on the river you might as well try to bet after their checks. If they check-raise you, you're probably beat. But if you do have them beat, you might get a few calls at least. Hell, for a big pot like this (11 BB before the river), I'd at least consider calling a check-raise that is only one bet back to me. (Let's assume you'd bet, MP1 raises, others fold -- it's one more BB back to you for a 14 BB pot -- I'd have to be REALLY sure I'm beat to fold for one more bet, especially when that BB is a mere .20).

I guess this doesn't answer your question about whether or not they were maniacs, but I hope that by trying to think about what they had or what they might be thinking or even how you might have won a few more bets was helpful. I mostly play live, and you'd be astonished at how many sheepish showdowns I've seen, where they turn over middle (or bottom) pair, no kicker, no draw against your top pair-decent kicker that you were sure was a loser. I guess the bottom line is to try to avoid playing crap, but when you do have end up with a weak hand, try to avoid being bullied by an even weaker hand. And that's where trying to observe their play is important -- if you have ANY idea about the kinds of hands they might be playing, you might get a better idea about where your hand stood.

BTW -- Whew -- that was my very first "analysis" post (I usually lurk and/or make inane comments). It was much harder than reading other people's posts!! I hope the more experienced players will let me know if I missed anything important.

[jimcrow2]

Thanks, Bolgenmode, for reading my post and - especially -
for such a detailed analysis. I really appreciate it.
I haven't read it thoroughly yet but plan to after I
finish this post.

MP1 had Qs Jc
SB had Qc 7s
UTG had Qh Th
(And, of course, HERO had Kd 7d) and was very lucky
to win)

Yes, I have been reading WLLH and knew better than to bet
the Kd 7d hand. You can bet I was completely "rattled" after all that Flop raising and reraising. I was sure I
was losing my money to a King with a better "kicker" - if
not to a set, etc. (And after reading all about the "dominatedhand" in WLLH)!

I am trying to build my bankroll up to the required 300 BB's
at the next level ($.25/$.50).
But I'll never get there if I don't follow the advice in WLLH (plus TOP-the first poker book I read).

Thanks again for your patience in reading my post and
double thanks for your detailed analysis. Good luck in
your poker career - you'll sure learn a lot from reading
2+2 posts.
/images/graemlins/wink.gif <font color="red"> </font>