O8 hand with lots of interesting decisions.

[partygirluk]

$.02/$.04 whilst learning the ropes.

Get dealt 6s 3c 8d 4h in the SB. 4 people limp to me.

Now I know this is not a great hand, but I am paying half price, and the pot will be 6 handed. I have a fair bit of straight potential, and 4 low cards also. Is this close? Anyway, I call. BB raises, all call. Well, the pot is now 22c, and it is 2c more to me to call, so I do.

Flop is 2c 5h 3d

I check. BB raised preflop, so I I hope he will bet out, and I can trap the field for two bets. Perhaps this is a hold'em mistake, as starting hands pot equity tends to deviate between preflop and flop more in Omaha than in HE.

3 people check, guy 4 bets, 5 and 6 fold, I just call. The board is rainbow, so I decide to wait for the turn until C/Ring. BB and UTG call.

Turn is AH

I check, BB bets, 2 calls, I raise, all call.

River is 8s

I bet, 2 people call.

[mosquito]

Learning the ropes, you should not play that crap,
even for half price. It's tough enough to play good
cards.

Do yourself a favor, and concentrate on playing hands
that can make the nuts. Middle straights will not make you money,
except when you back into them playing other draws.

[partygirluk]

This hand did make the nuts.

Anyway, I fully accept that this could be a fold preflop. Would you care to comment on the rest of the hand,


Ty.

[PapaSan]

I totally disagree, i dont think its a mistake at all to complete with this hand in sb. With 5 other callers you certainly have the odds to call, obviously u wouldnt have called a raise with it but bb raised and youre stuck and call.
Personally i would bet out the flop and turn especially, u dont want to give a free card here and rarely should u give free cards in omaha,save the fancy plays for holdem. Unlike holdem, just because someone raises preflop does not mean they will autobet the flop in O8.

[Slim Pickens]

Assuming you're in the hand to start, I think you actually played it about as well as you could. The only thing is I doubt it would have been a good idea to CR the flop if the opportunity existed. Low straights are vulnerable to a lot with two cards to come, and you're almost always playing for half the pot without an ace in you hand. The turn CR was OK, just betting against a heart or the board pairing.

Slim

[mosquito]

Any hand can make the nuts. That's why the fish
keep paying, and paying, and paying. My point was,
while the hand is somewhat playable, it's mostly
variance for you right now. Your questions indicate
that you are still working on the basics.

The basics are what need to be solid. How you play
a difficult hand, when you don't neccesarily know
how likely it is to hold up if you do make it, is
a bit more esoteric.

I am merely encouraging you to concentrate on the
basic skills. This hand is more of an "expert" question.
It's nice to get the opinions, especially if you did
play the hand well, but.......

[Slim Pickens]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you actually played it about as well as you could.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am still working on my basics, and I realize this is above me right now, but do you agree with me statement? Sometimes I'm completely off, but I'll just get my idea out there to get it set straight be the experts.

Slim

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
Get dealt 6s 3c 8d 4h in the SB. 4 people limp to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Party Girl - Not a good starting hand. Notice that you have all four suits. Rainbow hands are mostly not very good in Omaha-8.

Think of the cards in the deck as belonging to one of four categories:
(1) aces
(2) non-ace wheel cards (2,3,4,5)
(3) non-ace honor cards (K,Q,J,T)
(4) middle cards (6,9,7,8)

Think of aces as most valuable, then non-ace wheel cards, then non-ace honor cards, and last middle cards.

Think of the cards in each group as having value in the order in which I have listed them above.

Then keep in mind that suitedness is very important in Omaha-8. In full games, depending on the looseness of the game, a flush wins for high roughly twenty to twenty five per cent of the time. (Alas some hand with a flush loses almost twice this often, mostly to a higher flush, and next mostly to a boat, but also to quads and straight flushes). You don't want to pin your main hopes for winning a hand on a flush <font color="white">_</font>draw unless it is to the nuts and you have odds to draw (or perhaps second nuts if you're a very, very good card reader and are fairly certain no opponent is drawing to the nuts). But you do like to have a flush draw (even though not to the nuts) when you are primarily drawing for something else. This flush draw back-up is very important in Omaha-8. Suitedness is not reason enough to play a hand, nor is even double suitedness - but when your hand is a rainbow, it is especially weak.

Here you have a rainbow starting hand - and that is poor. No way around it.

[ QUOTE ]
Now I know this is not a great hand, but I am paying half price, and the pot will be 6 handed. I have a fair bit of straight potential, and 4 low cards also. Is this close?

[/ QUOTE ]

Whatever. You really only have two low cards that count much for making a winning low hand, the three and the four. You generally need to see both an ace and a deuce but no three and no four on the board to count your chances of winning low as very good. That simply doesn't happen much, and when it does, the six and the eight in your hand actually reduce the chances of getting a third low card on the board.

The hand does have a fair, but certainly not good, low straight potential. (Note there's a double gap and the three doesn't reach to the eight).

In addition, the hand has the same full house/quads potential as any other non-paired starting hand, about five per-cent - but when you do make a full house with the hand, it will often be a losing full house.

In summary, looking at the four principal groups of hands in this type of game,
• lows - poor
• straights - fair
• flushes - zero
• boats - poor

Give the hand grades of D,C-,F,D.

You ask, "Is this close?"

I don't know how to respond. I think an expert in a game with mostly weaker opponents might be able to average a profit with this hand.

[ QUOTE ]
Anyway, I call. BB raises, all call. Well, the pot is now 22c, and it is 2c more to me to call, so I do.

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct, in my humble opinion.

[ QUOTE ]
Flop is 2c 5h 3d

I check. BB raised preflop, so I I hope he will bet out, and I can trap the field for two bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whoa! You are the one who is likely to get trapped here. (Yes, I see that you have flopped the nut straight).

[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps this is a hold'em mistake, as starting hands pot equity tends to deviate between preflop and flop more in Omaha than in HE.

[/ QUOTE ]

You didn't have a good starting hand, and now, despite the flopped nut straight, do not have a good fit with the flop. That's just my opinion.

[ QUOTE ]
3 people check, guy 4 bets, 5 and 6 fold, I just call. The board is rainbow, so I decide to wait for the turn until C/Ring. BB and UTG call.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're in a situation where you can limit the field by creative betting, you probably want to try to knock out as many of your opponents as possible. For example, with a maniac on your left, you might bet hoping for a raise - or with a maniac on the button and with all your other opponents passive players, you might go for a check-raise. But honestly, with three low cards on the flop, it's going to be very difficult for you to limit the field, even if you figure out a way to present your opponents with a double bet.

Maybe you're still thinking your flopped straight will be good for a win at the showdown. (I'm thinking it probably won't be).

[ QUOTE ]
Turn is AH

[/ QUOTE ]

The ace of hearts is a good card for you. Now you have a wheel plus a six high straight with only one more card to sweat. (Were you sweating the turn, hoping it would not bring disaster for you, or were you blissfully oblivious of the danger?) At any rate, at this point you have gottne past one card and now, don't want to see any one of roughly 27 cards, most of the deck - but the other 17 cards are good for you.

[ QUOTE ]
I check, BB bets, 2 calls, I raise, all call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fine.

[ QUOTE ]
River is 8s

I bet, 2 people call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fine. You caught one of the 17 cards that are favorable for you on the river. Fair enough. Nice catch. Your flopped nut straight held up after all. Sometimes they do.

My thinking would have been different, but I would have played the hand much as you did, except for the check-raise. I don't check-raise much, except when I feel it's needed as a defensive measure, because in my experience check-raises often make for bad feelings. In general, instead of check-raising, unless I have a frequent semi-bluffer (or bluffer) behind me, I simply bet and hope I got raised.

But I think you usually will make more money in this situation by check-raising (as you did) than by simply betting (as I generally would).

Buzz

[chaos]

Your starting hand is sub-marginal.

For low you have 3-4. You need two perfect cards, both an Ace and a deuce (and not a 3 or 4), to make the nut low. Preflop you are behind anyone holding: A2, A3, 23, A4, or 24. So you have only the sixth best low. If you flop an Ace or a deuce, and another low card that is not a 3 or 4, you will have improved to the third nut low draw, which is generally not a playable hand.

Your straight possibilities are not worth much. Unlike Hold 'em, straights, especially low straights, have little value. Low straights usually are only good for half the pot since a low will be possible. Low straights are vulnerable to higher straights, flushes, and full houses/quads.

I would fold this hand, even in the small blind. As a beginning Omaha/8 player you are more likely to get in trouble with this hand than to show a long range profit.