adjusting to loose home games

[Bodhi]

Subject pretty much says the main point. I play a lot of limit online and when I play the occasional home game with friends it always takes me a while to adjust. I am generally a tight player and have a reputation for being tight in our home games. Now, a friend of mine who is a successful limit player is also a consistent winner in our NL/PL home games; he doesn't just leave with a little, but usually doubles his buy in or better. What confuses me is that he plays much looser in these home games than he does in a limit game, which seems counterintuitive to me, but then again I may not understand what's going on here. Our home games tend to be very loose and mostly passive, with one or two LAGs. The passive players will frequently cold call with hands like T6s or QTo, and the LAGs will raise or even go all in with a hand like A2o. In other words, our game is highly beatable but I rarely profit as much as my friend who deliberately loosens up.

He's tried explaining to me that implied odds just don't work the same way in NL/PL like they do in limit, which is partly self-evident. For instance, he'll make bottom pair and call the passive players to the river to try to make trips or two pair, then ram and jam if he makes his hand. Me, I fold bottom pair pretty routinely and don't try to suck out. Now, is this strategy profitable in NL/PL? It would only seem profitable if you expect someone to call your big raise when you make your hand, which you won't do very often. The most sense I can make of this is that with a psychological edge and the expectation that bad players will pay you off if you make your long shot, loosening up could be the way to go.

Please don't tell me that I can't possibly make the above inferences because I haven't seen enough hands, or whatever kind of condescending nonsense someone wants to shoot off. I've made these observations over 7-8 months or so and believe me, I would expect someone who plays slightly loose (and aggressive) to lose in the long run, but he's profited more than my modest returns. Explanations or further speculation welcome, thanx.

[jojobinks]

i play in a similar game, although it's tourny style.

i think that you definitely want to see more flops than you would in a tight game. if the game is beatable, you need to play more. your postflop play is better than theirs too, i assume?

if you've got them crushed preflop, than loosening up a little won't hurt that. i wouldn't call down bottom pair (that's a little extreme), but i'm also not afraid with top pair mediocre kicker like i might be in a tight game. you'll be able to outmaneuver these guys after the flop b/c your game is more sound. give yourself a chance and see more flops when you think you can limp in.

[Bodhi]

Ok, thanx. I got pretty much the same advice in the NL/PL forum. All but a few of these guys have never heard of raising for a free card, think that a flush draw is always 3-1 odds, and never consider their pot odds. I should be crushing this game but I haven't been seeing enough flops I guess.

[jojobinks]

i'm not trying to be condescending here, but the number of hands played is important, right? my game has been going off for a year and a couple of months, i'd say 15 times, for about 6 hours average for each session. so, i've played in this game about 100 hours. how many hands an hour do you play live? 30? i don't know about you, but i can't really measure my EV in this game after only 3000 hands. it's just not that much.

my point is that i wouldn't go too crazy with it. i still play pretty tight. i just make some calls that seem a little questionable. the gap between my questionable calls and the other guys' is out of control though. cold-calling T6o, is that the example you used? that's perfect.

in fact, this weekend we played, and i busted out when the loosest player of the bunch cold-called with 84s. musta been watching tilt, i guess.

[Bodhi]

No, I don't take that as condescending. I just added that bit because a lot of the time I post at 2+2 and people interpret my language in the most uncharitable way possible.

We play on average once a week. I'll go even more conservative and say 25 hands per hour (you have to be patient to play with these guys), and say we average 100 hands per session. If we've played 28 sessions that makes 2800 hands, so that's not a huge number but it's not nothing either. I should also mention that I've played at a card club with two of these guys on multiple occasions. One is a rock in both games, but like I said, the other is a completely different player in our home game.

So sure it's possible that he's on a 2800 hand hot streak, but he's still the best player I personally know and I don't take his impressive results too lightly.

[bttomb]

The home game I play in sounds very similar to your situation. The game is extremely loose, and I think adjusting and playing a few more hands that you wouldn't usually is the right thing to do. Just like your game, these people know anything about semi bluffing, getting a free card, or anything else. I don't even think they know what a check-raise is. It is pretty frustrating, as I don't win all the time in this game, but should be, and don't know why.

[CaptLego]

[ QUOTE ]
He's tried explaining to me that implied odds just don't work the same way in NL/PL like they do in limit, which is partly self-evident. For instance, he'll make bottom pair and call the passive players to the river to try to make trips or two pair, then ram and jam if he makes his hand. Me, I fold bottom pair pretty routinely and don't try to suck out. Now, is this strategy profitable in NL/PL? It would only seem profitable if you expect someone to call your big raise when you make your hand, which you won't do very often. The most sense I can make of this is that with a psychological edge and the expectation that bad players will pay you off if you make your long shot, loosening up could be the way to go.


[/ QUOTE ]

I tend to agree with your friend. If the game is as you describe (loose passive) like games I've experienced, the winning formula is pretty simple:

Draw (as cheaply as possible) for good hands, and overbet the hell out of them when you hit. The passive nature makes limping and drawing relatively cheap, and getting called when you do hit more than makes up for all the times you don't hit. Basically, the implied odds are enormous.

Never bluff, until the table routinely folds to your big raises. Then steal every pot until they start calling again.

If you get a maniac at the table, you'll have to abandon this strategy quickly, or you'll go broke. The maniac (or any agressive player) will punish you for drawing. But if the table is passive -- the draws will pay off.

[HTML Samurai]

This sounds a lot like my home game. Suited connecters are worth your chip stack's weight in gold! Any pocket pair that does not make Trips on the Flop is scary. Seeing flops is a big key to beating this type of game. Selective aggression is the defining factor. The thing that makes this type of game dangerous is the same thing that makes it profitable - your opponents don't know when to quit drawing, mostly because "It worked last time..."

[Bodhi]

Thank you all very much for your advice. It seems pretty unanimous that I should loosen up preflop just a little bit: see more flops and take advantage of the passivity to draw a little more often. I'll post again sometime to report on the experiment.

[Mossy]

Our weekly home game is exactly like this. We play limit, and players will go all the way to the end with as little as bottom pair (or worse) and someone will usually always catch their card to make 2 pair (or more) on the river to take the pot.

I have found that table position is extremely important and use it greatly to my advantage. We have one very loose aggressive player who loves to bluff, the rest are very loose and passive. As long as I get the aggressive guy on my right and can raise his bluffs to protect my hand when I have something worth protecting I can do well. The passive guys will usually fold when faced 2 bets or make a very unprofitable call.

Most of the players do not know anything about seat position, so the trick is getting them to sit where you want them to sit.