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dfscott

01-25-2005, 02:17 PM

Here are two KK hands that got ugly. In both cases, I thought I was likely beat, but couldn't decide if I should throw it away or just call down. Thoughts?

Hand 1:

UTG+1 is tight and aggressive pre-flop, but rather normal on the later streets.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 raises, Hero 3-bets, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB calls, BB folds, UTG+2 caps, Hero calls, SB calls.

Flop: (13 SB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
SB checks, UTG+2 bets, Hero raises, SB folds, UTG+2 calls.

Turn: (8.50 BB) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
UTG+2 bets, Hero calls.

River: (10.50 BB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
UTG+2 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 12.50 BB
Main Pot: 12.50 BB, between UTG+2 and Hero.

Hand 2:

MP2 is very loose (+50%) and fairly passive.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif. Hero posts a blind of $3.
UTG folds, MP1 raises, MP2 calls, Hero (poster) 3-bets, Button folds, SB folds, BB calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (12.33 SB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
BB checks, MP1 checks, MP2 bets, Hero raises, BB folds, MP1 folds, MP2 3-bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (9.16 BB) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
MP2 bets, Hero calls.

River: (11.16 BB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
MP2 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 13.16 BB
Main Pot: 13.16 BB, between MP2 and Hero.

Nick C

01-25-2005, 02:36 PM

Hand 1: I might call down too, hoping that my TAG opponent had uncharacteristically gotten out of line preflop. But things do start looking bad on the turn, and the river card just makes matters worse.

Hand 2: MP2 seems to like his hand a lot on the flop, but it could just be something like AQ. Once the turn card falls, you're hoping for something more like KQ, QJ, or Q7. And if it was Q7, the river did give you the hand.

I think I would make this calldown too, though I wouldn't really expect to win.

billyjex

01-25-2005, 02:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Hand 2: MP2 seems to like his hand a lot on the flop, but it could just be something like AQ. Once the turn card falls, you're hoping for something more like KQ, QJ, or Q7. And if it was Q7, the river did give you the hand.

I think I would make this calldown too, though I wouldn't really expect to win.

[/ QUOTE ]

I doubt a very passive player would cap the flop with TPTK, especially against a PF 3-better. I definetely see Q7 or Q5 here, a set or some "slowplayed" AA. However a call down might be correct because of the slight chance you are ahead + set outs + "hidden" two pair outs.

As for hand #1, I think you can let it go on the turn. The TAG is not too aggressive postflop and he is not scared of the A on the turn. You're getting a little less than 5 to 1 on the call down, and I don't think you'll be good enough to warrant a call down (though I could be wrong.)

MHarris

01-25-2005, 02:48 PM

Hand 1: Fold the turn. Unless TAG is way out of line, what can you beat here? It looks like the A changed his mind, like an AA that intended to c/r a non-paint turn (but doesn't want to miss any bets) or (less likely) a WAY out of line JJ or TT looking to steal the pot for 1 BB on the turn.

Hand 2: I think a call-down is in order. Even the loose-passives at 3/6 can get way out of line.

adamstewart

01-25-2005, 02:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1: Fold the turn. Unless TAG is way out of line, what can you beat here? It looks like the A changed his mind, like an AA that intended to c/r a non-paint turn (but doesn't want to miss any bets) or (less likely) a WAY out of line JJ or TT looking to steal the pot for 1 BB on the turn.

Hand 2: I think a call-down is in order. Even the loose-passives at 3/6 can get way out of line.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree.

Hand 1: Fold the turn.

Hand 2: There might be an argument for capping the flop here.

Adam

dfscott

01-25-2005, 03:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2: There might be an argument for capping the flop here.

[/ QUOTE ]

BTW, for those that are asking about capping the flop, my plan was to call the flop and then raise the turn. The A changed that plan.

ErrantNight

01-25-2005, 04:08 PM

i think you can lay the turn down in hand 1. capped preflop, bet into on the turn. given your aggression i don't think a "rather normal" player takes a shot at this pot on the turn without an ace. you have two outs, and even with the implied odds of a river raise when you hit, i don't think you have it (not to mention the fact that if UTG+2 has something like AQ he might slow down on the river).

after typing this i can't help but think this is a little weak-tight... if, say, UTG would bet the turn with something like KQ /images/graemlins/club.gif ?

given you're going to hafta call two bets to showdown, i don't think it's profitable, but hard to get away from.

in hand 2, where oh where is your flop cap?

i think the call down after that should be easy.

as it was played, i'm not sure a raise on the turn or river isn't warranted