Flopped trips and got checkraised on flop...what's your line

[woodguy]

Hello All,

This hand happened in Super Monday on Party (where I bubbled 114th top 90 got paid /images/graemlins/tongue.gif)

After thinking about this hand, I figured it could be played a couple different ways.

I like leading out with trips as most won't put you on it, so you can build a bigger pot.

What I don't like is what I did after the check/raise (no, I didn't fold)

I'd been at the table for a while with UTG+2 and the SB, neither had done anything to warrant a note, good or bad.

What's your line and why?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

Button (t445)
SB (t5065)
Hero (t2695)
UTG (t1910)
UTG+1 (t605)
UTG+2 (t4341)
MP1 (t3145)
MP2 (t3075)
MP3 (t1205)
CO (t4715)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls t100, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (t300) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t200</font>, UTG+2 calls t200, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises to t800</font>, HERO??????


Regards,
Woodguy

[SossMan]

That looks like the easiest flat call, check raise the turn in history. Yeah, I know, it's ABC, but they are drawing to 4 outs at best. Trap that guy in the middle.

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
That looks like the easiest flat call, check raise the turn in history. Yeah, I know, it's ABC, but they are drawing to 4 outs at best. Trap that guy in the middle.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with the flat call, but hero can't check-raise the turn if the SB acts first.

[etgryphon]

Smooth call - push the turn.

Someone with 88s would have slow played this till the turn at least I'm thinking.

-Gryph

[MsMontreal]

This is an easy smoothcall. I might even let him improve his hand all the way to river with that type of flop.

[dt133]

I'm a bit newer to tournaments, but couldn't a flat call not be the best play here? I think that the SB here must either have trips with a weaker kicker or gutshot str8 draw, and is making a play against the late position bettor thinking he's trying to just take down the pot. Particularly because he's in the SB, he can give the appearance that he's flopped trips.

I think perhaps a push is good here, as you most likely have the best hand and you don't want another 8 or a completed gutshot (56 or 67 hand) to occur on the turn or the river. I think that the SB here most likely has trips weak kicker, gutshot draw, or possibly even 9s or 10s to make this play.

If he flips over 84 or 8s, so be it, but he would probably either bet out first in this case or just flat call your bet otherwise i think.

[Jason Strasser]

I go 2 ways here.

Shove it all in on the flop and hope you get called by a higher pair, an 8, or lose to the one logical hand that has u beat in 88, or flat call and check-raise the turn or lead all in on the river if its checked behind.

The thing about this board is that no one is drawing, so flat calling is fine because your opponent probably has two outs at most if you are ahead... Which also seems very likely.

Good flop lead though.
-Jason

[woodguy]

Thanks all.

I wasn't too far off base, as I smooth called and UTG+2 folded /images/graemlins/confused.gif

K /images/graemlins/spade.gif comes off on the turn and SB checks and I push and SB folds.

I was thinking maybe I should have re-raised on the flop to get more $$$ in there while he was interested given the result, but keeping (or trying to keep) UTG+2 involved makes more sense.

I wasn't going to check through the turn as I refuse to give free cards unless I have the deck empited.

Thanks for the check up.

Regards,
Woodguy

[Shoog]

nice example of your theory of leading out with trips b/c few believe you have them. Looks like villan assumed you were bluffing or semibluffing an 8 and would fold to his reraise.

[adanthar]

UTG+2's play makes a lot of sense. He probably had an 8/99/similar, just called your bet, saw that you called the raise and autofolded. I'd play it the same. (Of course, he could also have QTo. Let's assume he's rational.)

But on the turn, you shouldn't be pushing. I want to either check behind or try to underbet to get him to CR...probably check. I'll take the chance of exactly two spades in exchange for him bluffing the river. (If he has trips hitting his kicker doesn't matter as the chips are going in anyway.)

[SossMan]

duh...this makes it even better, then.

If I flatcall and the guy behind me calls, then I'm flat calling the turn again in hopes that I can get the overcall. Hopefully, I could then simply call/push all in on the river.
If I don't get the flop overcall, then I'm minraising the turn if bet into, and checking behind if a big card comes and he checks.
I'll go ahead and push if a semi-scare card (5,6,7) and he bets out. I'll make a pot sized bet if a scare card comes and he checks.

[poolshark]

I agree with what has been said so far. I would like to ask a hypothetical question though. What happens if after you have flat called his raise, an 8 hits the turn and he checks to you - what's your line then?

[adanthar]

Bet 1/2 the pot as the last chips you're putting in the hand.

[SossMan]

if he checks to me, I'm making a turn continuation bet of about 1/2 the pot. If he calls, I'm darn near done with the hand.

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
Bet 1/2 the pot as the last chips you're putting in the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

nice play, sir.

[Pat Southern]

Do you fold to a river push from him, considering you only will have around 1000 chips left?

[woodguy]

[ QUOTE ]
But on the turn, you shouldn't be pushing. I want to either check behind or try to underbet to get him to CR...probably check. I'll take the chance of exactly two spades in exchange for him bluffing the river. (If he has trips hitting his kicker doesn't matter as the chips are going in anyway.)


[/ QUOTE ]

That makes a lot of sense.

I'm probably only getting called by 88, maybe 99-TT.

I wasn't afraid of another spade, my thinking was that the pot was 2100 and I had 1795 left behind, any reasonable bet would be the rest of my stack, and the pot is big enough now that I don't mind taking it down.

He was probably drawing to 2 outs, so I can afford to give the card, I've just been really gunshy on that play of late as I've made "the worst mistake in poker" a few times lately and let my opponent draw out on me for free when they were drawing thin.

That being said, I have him on a pair and not 2 spades, I should have checked through the turn or make a wounded duck bet of 700 or so, hoping he smells weakness and comes overtop.

As an aside, if you have an opponent on a hand and you are comfortable with your read, what is the maximum amount of outs you let see the next card for free?

This is probably a function of the size of the pot and how much you have left behind, and of course your opponent, but I'm interested in the responses.

So this question is really simplistic, but here it is:

If my opponent has X outs to beat me, I will let the next card come for free.

What is the maximum value of X?

Assume typical opponent who has shown aggression in the hand so is better than 50% to bet the next card.

How much does your stack size influence your decision?

Regards,
Woodguy

[adanthar]

A gutshot or less (if I think 2 pair and I can beat it I'm betting.)

[jackdaniels]

I may be in the minority here, but if there is a good chance they will bluff off their chips on a miss, I would let a SINGLE opponent draw to as many as 9 outs (flush draw). Again, I would only do this if I was fairly sure they would bluff off their chips (I'd have to be in position) and it would have to be against no more than a single opponent, and have some outs if they hit (say I had a set). Ofcourse, this is more often the case when the pot is small and we both have lots of chips. If they have a small stack/the pot is large - no free cards; let them make that desparation decision for the rest of their chips right there and then. I also wouldn't want to modify my play too much with premium holdings, as I wouldn't be in a position to do the same when my holdings weren't as premium and I had to protect my hand.

[MLG]

I agree completely. Good reads and position make free cards much less dangerous.

[gergery]

ways to be dealt a pair of 8’s: C(3,2) = 3 ways. And he might have raised.
ways to be dealt a 4: C(1,1) * C(47,1) = 47 ways. And bigstacks love to limp with crap
ways to be dealt a different pocket pair or overcards = lots. And bigstacks love to bluff
chips you’ll win getting lots of your chips in here = priceless

I might flat call to bring UTG2 in and hope SB bluffs out on the turn with 66/A8 type hand or hope that he hits on the turn with an AQs type hand. You only need 1 more decent bet from them to pot commit them with your stack. I’d probably bet the turn a small amount if he checks.

--Greg