Should I call a 2 way allin with AK?

[Scuba Chuck]

the only thing I can say is that UTG "felt" like a steal. MP1 could have been anything, and obviously I feared AA or KK.

My position was one of lunacy looking back. Any criticism is welcome. EV analysis might be interesting...

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Button (t1830)
Hero (t965)
BB (t935)
UTG (t995)
MP1 (t2010)
MP2 (t765)
CO (t500)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to t450</font>, MP1 calls t450, MP2 folds, CO folds, Button folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t965 (All-In)</font>, BB folds, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to t995 (All-In)</font>, MP1 calls t545.

Flop: (t3155) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players, 2 all-in)</font>

Turn: (t3155) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players, 2 all-in)</font>

River: (t3155) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players, 2 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: t3155

MP1 A /images/graemlins/club.gif J /images/graemlins/heart.gif
UTG K /images/graemlins/club.gif 10 /images/graemlins/club.gif

[SuitedSixes]

[ QUOTE ]
EV analysis might be interesting...

[/ QUOTE ]
twotimes.net is your friend.

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=730402
pokenum -h kh as - ac jh - kc tc
Holdem Hi: 1370754 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
As Kh 683697 49.88 624355 45.55 62702 4.57 0.521
Ac Jh 273314 19.94 1042040 76.02 55400 4.04 0.219
Kc Tc 351041 25.61 1005552 73.36 14161 1.03 0.260

But remember, you said odds aren't important in tournament play.

[bigredlemon]

You have 5xBB and the bubble is still a long way away. And you're in SB, so you're getting a discount on top. What exactly is holding you back?

[Scuba Chuck]

Bigredlemon, that's exactly what I was thinking!

I don't know if that is good SnG play tho.

[Scuba Chuck]

"But remember, you said odds aren't important in tournament play. "

And I thought no one listens to me.

[SuitedSixes]

Scuba-
From the hands you're posting I am guessing that you play a very good tight game in Levels 1-3, but you are having a hard time shifting gears once it gets short-handed. I have experienced the same probelms. It is hard to get used to the fact that you can't even limp with ATs early, but open-push with it fifteen minutes later. My advice:
1) Answer eastbay's replies to your other posts with actual numbers. Don't worry about getting the math wrong, everyone will help you figure it out. The best posts are the ones that you get wrong. Eastbay and Irieguy are intentionally being vague for you so that you can think through some of this on your own. Take advantage of the fact that two of the best posters here are willing to walk you through this for free. I know some people who pay for advice like this.
2) Realize that short-handed you only need to beat one other hand.
3) Subscribe to the "Be satisfied with 3rd, gamble for 1st theory."
4) Understand the Gap Concept.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Three things.

1) You didn't call a 2-way all-in. You pushed first.

2) Did you understand before you pushed that you had zero fold equity? UTG isn't folding after putting half his chips in the pot and getting almost 6-1, UTG+1 is calling regardless of what he holds.

3) You were right. You had the best hand and less than 5 BB in your stack. Looks to me like you made the tight choice. Results are irrelevant.

[rachelwxm]

If you never fold AK 5bb or less, you are likely not too wrong.

Push for value.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
1) You didn't call a 2-way all-in. You pushed first.

2) Did you understand before you pushed that you had zero fold equity?

[/ QUOTE ]

i think this might be why OP shortened his subject to "call a 2 way allin"

and yes, with under 5 bb's, AK is gold. get the money in.

[TakeMeToTheRiver]

UTG looks like a PP to me and big stack in MP looks like two big cards. You have the nut no pair and can triple up. Easy push -- no other choice.

[Scuba Chuck]

SuitedSix,

I take your advice to heart. Thank you.

Admissions &amp; Introspection:
I think where I get mixed up a lot is that I am very straight-forward (i.e. I think I would benefit from more stop-n-go's), and I believe some of my flaws come from my lack of experience in betting behavior. But what do I really know?

With regard to the math, I don't know how to yet. And until yesterday, I didn't know how to even learn how. I began reading TPFAP just yesterday. (light bulb) I will be trying some math soon. Math corrections welcome.

Finally, I am so glad I posted this hand. I was expecting criticisms. There is so many little things to learn still. What a great game.

[e_fermat]

That was Table 13778 on a PP $20+2 correct? Damn you Scuba. That was me you busted out on my steal attempt.

In any case, there's no way I would have folded AK in your situation with less than 5BB. I would have also thought you would have put me as slightly LAG given I had to make my way back from 150 chips (after losing AK to an AJ river) pushing marginal hands. The last hands I pushed and showed down were KJo, K5o.

Good work taking this one down.

[therock]

e - I don't know the answer, so I'm asking. If you are trying to steal, why not just push pre-flop? Do you find your pre-flop raise (non push) to be more effective?

[e_fermat]

I had been pushing pre-flop pretty heavily (at least 5 times in the last couple of orbits to stay alive) and was hoping to mix it up and use a stop-n-go if I faced a caller since I was raising from early position. I knew I was pot-committed so I would have had to call regardless. But that was my thinking anyways...whether it was right or not.

[Beavis68]

To answer specifically about calling two all-ins with AK, I don't like to do it because usually one person had a pair and the other has an ace. That is usually a neurtal EV spot.

[gvibes]

[ QUOTE ]
To answer specifically about calling two all-ins with AK, I don't like to do it because usually one person had a pair and the other has an ace. That is usually a neurtal EV spot.

[/ QUOTE ]

A fed possible hands - sorry, just discovered the fun of twodimes.

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=731005
pokenum -h 6c 6d - 9c 9d - ah ks
Holdem Hi: 1370754 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
6c 6d 243076 17.73 1124613 82.04 3065 0.22 0.178
9c 9d 609484 44.46 758205 55.31 3065 0.22 0.445
Ks Ah 515129 37.58 852560 62.20 3065 0.22 0.377

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=731002
pokenum -h 8c 8h - as kd - ac jh
Holdem Hi: 1370754 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
8c 8h 621420 45.33 745677 54.40 3657 0.27 0.454
As Kd 457389 33.37 889400 64.88 23965 1.75 0.342
Ac Jh 267980 19.55 1078809 78.70 23965 1.75 0.204

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=731008
pokenum -h 9c 9d - kc qc - ah ks
Holdem Hi: 1370754 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
9c 9d 594676 43.38 772087 56.33 3991 0.29 0.435
Kc Qc 324927 23.70 1032797 75.35 13030 0.95 0.241
Ks Ah 438121 31.96 919603 67.09 13030 0.95 0.324

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=731010
pokenum -h 9c 9d - jc qc - ah ks
Holdem Hi: 1370754 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
9c 9d 434131 31.67 933275 68.08 3348 0.24 0.318
Qc Jc 421425 30.74 945981 69.01 3348 0.24 0.308
Ks Ah 511850 37.34 855556 62.41 3348 0.24 0.374

I don't know... If there is any dead money in there, it's definitely NOT -EV. I personally probably call 100% of the time.