Some HU hands (long, help appreciated but disdain understood) [Archive]

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Harv72b

01-25-2005, 01:11 AM

I don't generally like to post multiple hands in one thread, but I want some help on what I'm doing right & wrong here. An absolutely terrible Sunday followed by a mediocre Monday has me looking for holes, and I believe that heads up play is one of my biggest weaknesses right now.

Hand 1:
Villain is LAG (66/14) over 100 hands.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
2 folds, Hero calls, MP2 raises, 3 folds, SB calls, BB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks, MP2 bets, SB folds, BB folds, Hero raises, MP2 calls.

Turn: (6 BB) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, MP2 calls.

River: (8 BB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, MP2 calls.

Final Pot: 10 BB
Main Pot: 10 BB, between Hero and MP2.

Too much work for too little pot?

Hand 2:
Villain is an unknown in his first orbit at the table.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 raises, 3 folds, Hero 3-bets, 4 folds, UTG+1 caps, Hero calls.

Flop: (9.33 SB) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
UTG+1 bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.66 BB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
UTG+1 bets, Hero raises, UTG+1 calls.

River: (9.66 BB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
UTG+1 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11.66 BB
Main Pot: 11.66 BB, between UTG+1 and Hero.

Big question is the river...I figured if I raised I'd either get 3-bet by the FH (or quads), or get a fold. Right thinking?

Hand 3:
Villain is the same LAG from Hand 1.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
8 folds, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (2 SB) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, BB calls.

Turn: (2 BB) T/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, BB calls.

River: (4 BB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 6 BB
Main Pot: 6 BB, between Hero and BB.

I still suck at heads up situations. Release this even against a LAG, or is this a check/fold river? What about preflop...fold it, raise it, or what I did?

Hand 4:
Villain is a TAG.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
2 folds, UTG+2 calls, 3 folds, CO calls, 1 fold, SB completes, Hero raises, UTG+2 calls, CO calls, SB calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, UTG+2 folds, CO calls, SB calls.

Turn: (7 BB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, CO raises, SB folds, Hero...?

Assume that you believe CO is capable of a bluff raise on the turn...even then, do you call, fold, or 3-bet?

Hand 5:
Villain is the same player from Hand 2, now identified as LAG, borderline maniac but capable of folding the later streets when faced with aggression.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
5 folds, MP3 raises, 3 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (4.33 SB) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, MP3 calls.

Turn: (3.16 BB) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, MP3 calls.

River: (5.16 BB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero...?

Is there any harder play in poker than 22 out of position?

Hand 6:
Villain is a solid TAG over 100+ hands, very tight (8/8).

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 raises, 4 folds, Hero calls, 3 folds.

Flop: (5.33 SB) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
UTG+1 bets, Hero raises...

...Intending to fold to a 3-bet or a turn bet/check raise unimproved. Aside from the flop raise, what about the preflop call? Better to 3-bet? Fold?

I know that's a ton of reading & I thank those of you who are still looking at this post. Any feedback will be greatly appreciated, even if only on one or two hands.

btspider

01-25-2005, 03:11 PM

i'm pretty bad at some of these situations, so here's a stab + bump for you:

hand 1:
raise PF, fold the flop. this guy looks pretty loose and probably won't fold AK or better postflop. turn/river look fine.

hand 2:
i'd probably raise the flop. the JJ may scare him or he may try to check-raise the turn (i'd take a free card). i find it hard to put him on a J, so I'd probably raise the river. i'd find it difficult to fold to a 3-bet though, so i'd call. it feels incorrect to raise if I can't fold to a 3-bet.

hand 3:
raise or fold PF.. probably fold with this blind structure. against this opponent, i wonder if a turn check (check with outs) is better.. the pot is pretty small and a free card doesn't hurt you too much since all the overcards are already out. river situation sucks with this opponent. i can see the check-call if you need to showdown.

hand 4:
i'd fold the turn. the pot was protected when he raised and you only have a draw to a pair. the flop raise doesn't feel right. isn't this a reverse implied odds scenario? you are drawing to a pair with terrible relative position on a semi-coordinated board. at least you have the bd flush.

hand 5:
are you bet-folding those postflop streets? if you can fold confidently, i like it. if you can't fold, then i think he'll put in one bet per street if you just check to him. this ensures a showdown with your pair. the flop is ragged enough that he won't fold a pair of his own and may not fold overcards. OOP does suck..

hand 6:
i fold TT and worse PF HU against a tag.

comments on my comments appreciated.. i was unsure on some of these..

J.R.

01-25-2005, 03:25 PM

Hand 1- Open raise! I'd consider betting the flop and hoping he raises, but once it comes back headsup you did well, although with your Kicker the check-raise may be a bit much considering this oppoent is unliekly to try for the free card on the turn given your perception of his aggression level.

Hand 2- Raise the flop for value/free card/image- don't be afraid to gamble in close spots, your image and win rate will thank you! Raise the damn river!An A or overpair will call, its unliekly he has a J given the preflop.

Hand 3.Raise or fold preflop, I prefer raise! Don;t limp in preflop v aggro players. Let thsi flop go if you just limped and he is LAGGY (i.e. don;t bet unless he is weak-tight, and in that case you assuredly would have raised preflop) as its not worth gambling with him in such a marginal spot.

Hand 4- getting 10-1 I call the turn begrudginly. FWIW I often just call the flop here.

Hand 5- let him bet the turn, he will. Then bet the river

[ QUOTE ]
Is there any harder play in poker than 22 out of position?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, betting the turn with a marginal hand into a plyer with positon who can and will raise with many worse hands and will proabably bet anyway if you check

Hand 6- Fold preflop. If he opens more than this you could play but must 3-bet in that case. Your postflop plan is sound, although there can be image issue associated with folding to a flop 3-bet.

27offsooot

01-25-2005, 03:42 PM

Too many hands... but i'm bored, so i'll stab, FWIW.

1:
PF: Preference 1. Raise 2. Fold 3. Call
Flop: I don't really like the c/r b/c the pot is still smallish, and he won't fold a pp and i don't think he will fold AK until the river b/c ur CR looks a lot more like a pocket pair b/c i would expect a queen or boat to wait until the turn. So u likely have to pay three big bets here.
Turn: Having C/red, u have to lead, so OK.
River: Check-call. Induce a bluff out of AK. I don't think AK calls u here if u lead.

2: At first, i thought that there was no way can u raise the river. However, what hand is worth a cap PF that has a J in it? Smells like QQ-AA w/o a heart and he waited until a non-heart came on the river b/f leading, thinking u prob had a high pocket pair. So I would actually raise the river.

3: Fold PF or raise against an ultra-tight BB. Having called, bet the flop, check-fold the rest of the hand

4: CO cold called two and then raised the turn, he's not bluffing, fold.

5. Fold PF, fold the flop, fold the turn, oh yeah, and check-call the river since u didn't fold.

6. Against a UTG+1 raiser with no other CCers, i think this is a fold PF. If you could expect 2 of the three following to call, maybe call, but i doubt u will get that many at this level. Your plan is fine after PF.

spydog

01-25-2005, 04:04 PM

Hand 1: Raise PF. After that, I just let him do the work. I'm not folding to a LAG on this board. He'll make me pay if he's ahead, yet he'll bet for me if he's behind. You probably have little or no fold equity, so I just check-call the whole way. Maybe consider betting the river.

Hand 2: I'd consider raising the flop with the intention taking a free ride to the river, although you are susceptible to a 3-bet. But you have strong outs. Turn plays itself. River is fine.

Hand 3: Don't complete this hand against a LAG. Only complete this against loose passives that play predictably postflop. Raise against weak-tighties.

Hand 4: Easy fold on the turn. I would check this turn after CO coldcalled 2 on the flop and you still have SB in there. I don't think you have the best hand and you have zero fold equity with this bet.

Hand 5: Against a LAG, I'm content to let them do the betting when I have a hand that is worth showing down. He won't fold if he has overcards. Good board to let him bluff away. You will make money in the long run against a LAG if you just check-call any pair and any ace all the way to the river, assuming the board doesn't get too hairy.

Hand 6: Fold preflop. Since you called, I would call the flop, raise any turn card. This gives you the most fold equity and you can fold to a 3-bet or check behind on the river if he calls.

spydog

01-25-2005, 04:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Hand 2- Raise the flop for value/free card/image- don't be afraid to gamble in close spots, your image and win rate will thank you! Raise the damn river!An A or overpair will call, its unliekly he has a J given the preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think this is a raise. You must look at how your opponent perceives your play. Hero played this hand as if he had a Jack in his hand, so why would Villian bet into him with AA, KK, or any other hand?

J.R.

01-25-2005, 04:15 PM

yeah, but hero 3-bet preflop. had he coldcalled and smoothcalled the flop then popped the turn hero's hand looks far more like a J, but I disagree given the preflop 3-bet.

spydog

01-25-2005, 04:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
yeah, but hero 3-bet preflop. had he coldcalled and smoothcalled the flop then popped the turn hero's hand looks far more like a J, but I disagree given the preflop 3-bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I agree with you here. I'm a little baffled as to what Villian would lead in this spot that he wouldn't have 3-bet on the turn. I think he's just bluffing and will fold to a raise, but the raise looks good.

I'd like to see results from this hand and some after-the-facts stats on this player.

27offsooot

01-25-2005, 04:41 PM

5. Didn't realize that this was a likely blind steal, the PF call is good then, check-call, check-call, bet would be my line.

Harv72b

01-25-2005, 04:41 PM

Hey, I really appreciate all these responses, and more responses would be even more appreciated. /images/graemlins/grin.gif I'm going to try dedicating one response per hand vs. per poster, rather than clutter up the thread. Let me say in advance that I sometimes come off like I'm telling rather than asking, but all of this is just a request for more clarification. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1- Open raise!
1: PF: Preference 1. Raise 2. Fold 3. Call
Hand 1: Raise PF.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I'm beginning to see why I can't get my PFR any higher than ~8.5. I did consider raising at the time, but I always get nervous about doing that with AXs from any earlier than CO. I realize that A9s is a lot different than A3s, but still...this is an adjustment that I'll start toying around with, though, thanks!

Aside from the flop c/r, which I can see was not a good move vs. this opponent, I did feel good about my play. Villain showed AA, however, and MHWNECTG.

Harv72b

01-25-2005, 04:55 PM

Okay, hand 2...

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2- Raise the flop for value/free card/image- don't be afraid to gamble in close spots, your image and win rate will thank you

[/ QUOTE ]

99.99% of the time I raise this flop with two overs & the nut flush draw. In this particular hand my plan was to call the flop bet and raise any turn card, allowing a check through on the river if my draw didn't come in. It felt very dirty to click the "call" button on the river instead of raising...I think I greatly underestimated the number of worse hands that would call the river raise.

[ QUOTE ]
Smells like QQ-AA w/o a heart and he waited until a non-heart came on the river b/f leading

[/ QUOTE ]

You're dead on. Villain showed A/images/graemlins/spade.gif A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif and MHIG.

[ QUOTE ]
Hero played this hand as if he had a Jack in his hand, so why would Villian bet into him with AA, KK, or any other hand

[/ QUOTE ]

As it turned out, I think I played this hand very transparently. I was lucky that my opponent guessed wrong & thought that I had the overpair + heart, but I blew it anyway by not raising the river. :sigh:

Harv72b

01-25-2005, 05:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
raise or fold PF
Raise or fold preflop

[/ QUOTE ]

Is it ever really worth raising preflop against a LAG, though, knowing that he will never fold his blind and that a huge chunk of the "any two" hands hold at least one overcard to my 98o? Looking back on the hand, I feel like I should have folded preflop...I think this was just a case of temporary stupidity.

[ QUOTE ]
i wonder if a turn check (check with outs) is better.. the pot is pretty small and a free card doesn't hurt you too much since all the overcards are already out.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a very good point, I think. I tend to play my draws very aggressively in the hopes of just buying the pot hit or miss, or of misrepesenting my hand if I do hit it. Against this opponent, I'm not going to buy many pots, though.

27offsooot

01-25-2005, 05:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
raise or fold PF
Raise or fold preflop

[/ QUOTE ]

Is it ever really worth raising preflop against a LAG, though, knowing that he will never fold his blind and that a huge chunk of the "any two" hands hold at least one overcard to my 98o? Looking back on the hand, I feel like I should have folded preflop...I think this was just a case of temporary stupidity.

[/ QUOTE ]
Against this opponent, he won't fold to the PF raise and this hand is not worth playing HU out of position. Also, the sb is 1/3, so that is also a consideration as the other poster had mentioned. I missed the OESD that u picked up on the turn, so i actually like a turn bet there, but the river is check-call.

Harv72b

01-25-2005, 05:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
FWIW I often just call the flop here

[/ QUOTE ]

It seemed like raising made more sense to me, since I was certainly going to continue the hand and the raise could force out a hand like A7 or A2s (or a lone T or 8 that could cause problems later). Is it really a better play to only call?

[ QUOTE ]
i'd fold the turn. the pot was protected when he raised and you only have a draw to a pair
CO cold called two and then raised the turn, he's not bluffing, fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

What I was thinking at the time was that he might have cold called the flop with two clubs and then hit top pair on the turn, in which case I would still have a redraw on the river, although it could be to as few as 3 cards.

I wound up calling the turn c/r, and the river was checked through after the 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif showed up. Villain showed J/images/graemlins/heart.gif T/images/graemlins/heart.gif to take the pot.

Harv72b

01-25-2005, 05:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
are you bet-folding those postflop streets?

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely. My read on villain at this point is that he could have any two broadway cards, any pocket pair, or any A to raise preflop, but that he will not raise a turn or river with just A high.

[ QUOTE ]
let him bet the turn, he will. Then bet the river

[/ QUOTE ]

Is check/call really the proper play here, though, when I probably have the best hand but am very vulnerable? I wasn't as specific in my original post about my read on the villain, but does your line change if you know that he won't raise with A high (but will bet with it)?

Anyway, I wound up check/calling the river and villain showed AhTs, MHING.

Harv72b

01-25-2005, 05:38 PM

Not much to say here. I cold-called the PFR because I was feeling a little frisky, and I have twice (!) folded 88 to a PFR or 3-bet in the past month, only to see the other two eights come down on the flop (and one of those wound up being against an AA and a KK...and a K came on the river /images/graemlins/frown.gif ).

If I was going to put the villain on whiffed overcards or JJ-TT, I probably should've waited to pop the turn as spydog suggested...my reasoning at the time was that I might be able to buy a free card with the flop raise vs. a better hand, giving me 2 shots to hit my set.

As it turned out, this line worked beautifully on this particular hand. The turn brought a gorgeous looking 8, and villain check/raised me. /images/graemlins/grin.gif I 3-bet the turn and he check/called a river J with AQo.