Internet Poker Props

When I first arrived in Las Vegas, the Bingo Plalace had a standing ad in the R-J, which read "We pay you to play poker" This was a great hook for us low-budget "hometown" champions.


This is what a prop is. Someone who collects pay from the casino while playing in short games while playing his own money.


Most props are lucky, or are skillful enough, to break even on their play. It is rare for someone to make a BB/hr while doing their jobs of playing with no regard to game selection.


The pay standard for internet props is about $15/hr. Some sites pay per hand. Some require only Hold'em, others only Stud 8/B or Omaha 8/b.


The limits required are almost always $5-10 and below. Most sites don't require headsup play. A key part of a prop program, to almost every prop, is how flexible the hours are.


The props that do best are the ones that come into a program well financed and are good short-handed players. Poker junkies are the best props.


Props are the grease that make an internet poker site run smoothly. It's easier to start games with them and to keep games going.


One thing about props that always brings about a debate is, should props be identified to customers?


Everyone has strong feelings about this. Mine are that it causes too many problems between customers and props when you do. Some customers attempt to beat the props over the head with this info.


MS Sunshine

Just out of curiosity, if a casino pays you $15 per hour, but how much are you giving back to casino in rake per hour on the average?


If you are giving back more than $15 per hour, than there's nothing to lose for the casino, so they could have hired 1000 props playing at the same time, bashing each other's brains out, and still make money.


A friend of mine who is a prop working for a local poker room tells me that he gets somewhere from 20-30 bucks (forgot the exact figure) per hour from the casino, but he has to play in the mid limit games, so the higher paid, I suppose.

I hate to ask but I just can't help. Is anybody actually doing this? If so, please email me with details. I'm merely curious.


iammojay@hotmail.com


Mojay

Dear MS Sunshine:


While I have great respect for your analysis and posts on the subject of internet poker, I must vehemently disagree with two opinions you offer on the subject of propostion players:


1. You state that "Props are the grease that make an internet poker site run smoothly".


I disagree with the implication that props are necessary.


For most players, poker provides entertainment, recreation and social interaction rather than long term economic gain. A site which offers both the regular player and the recreational player good value for their time should not have to pay certain people to play there. Better-run brick and mortar poker rooms in high traffic areas with adequate capacity do not employ props to maintain games. Certainly, the internet offers sites potentially high trafic and infinite capacity.


Accordingly, a site which can attract customers and whose games and software offer entertainment or other value for their time should be able to start and keep games going.


Props cannot substitute for "good value" in attracting and keeping players interested in a site. Value can be either winnings or recreation/entertainment or both.


2. You then pose the question "Should props be identified to customers ?"


Absolutely.


First. it is inherently unfair to other players to conceal props' identities. Props are subsidized players who have an economic relationship with the House.


The House subsidzes their play, in effect reducing the price/risk props pay, compared to other players. Other players are entitled to know if the playing field is level, or who has a subsidy. Additionally, the fact that a prop has a "house" connection should be revealed out of basic fairness.


Secondly, the prop, and other props, certainly know who is who. Also, some favored players likely would know who the props are, whether told by the props on the side or otherwise. (Given your reported experience, it is evident some players did know and attempt to "beat the props over the head" as you put it.)


Additionally, the House generally imposes certain rules on props' conduct. An underlying problem arises because props are interacting directly with customers in a very basic way, they are direct competitors. To the extent that a prop's actions may be controlled by the House policies on action, staying in games, et cetera, it is unfair to attempt to front props as regular "players".


I understand that Nevada requires a casino poker room to identify props or shills upon player request. This seems a fair rule, which players should require of any internet site they patronize.


Finally, I disagree with the justification you offer as to how the issue is debatable. I am sorry that a known prop's job is made more difficult and some players "attempt to beat him over the head with the info", as you put it. the solution to that problem is not to rob players of material information, rather it is to pay the props more money for their more difficult job.


(I suspect that as a labor pool, props would trade secrecy for more money. I could be guessing wrongly however because Truepoker does not use proposition players or shills.)


I am not slamming the use of props as such, rather the unsavory air which secrecy policies create. A site which allows someone with a subsidy and secret knowledge to conceal those facts cannot help create trust in the industry as a whole.


Thanks for addressing these issues in this forum. I am always interested in what forum participants think.


David Gzesh, CEO

Truepoker

while i dislike the use of shills (the ones at the blackjack table betting wild with house money, and whooping and hollering to lossen us up)props are another story. there are many small but nice poker rooms and sites were a prop can make the differnce between rather or not a game gets started. this is rake to the house and action for the players. props by nature are usually solid tight players, and can be beaten, but they cannot quit the game. also they can be in a profitable 3/6 game, and be pulled out to start a loosing 10/20 with 2 drunk tourest. yes they should be identified on request, then you will know that a little loose aggresive play may give them a head acke.let us pretend that a prop gets $20 hr x8 =$160 - now he has a bad day and looses $200, the house is subdising the whole table, the prop only is out 40 from his poket. i have played with many of them and don,t mind at all.

I don't think new internet cardrooms have any choice but to employ props. It's either props or huge give aways like the PP million. ( btw the new PP million has no overlay as prize pool is not guarenteed ). I think props should be identified for perception of integrity, which is by far the most important thing a cardroom needs. Good luck to all the new sites, i hope you have deep pockets.

My local cardroom usually has one or two casino employees sitting at the table when it is slow. They are clearly cardroom management and look like they actually run the show, sit people, cash player in and out. The one thing that makes me smile is these guys give unlimited action. One never folds pre-flop and calls all the way to the river (most of the time). The other is a little tighter, but only raises with the nuts. They are constantly pumping the pot and seem to be using the casino's money and not their own. When the game fills up they leave so a "real" player can sit down.


Hell the way these guys play, I'd rather have them in the game! I think I understand what a prop is, but what is a shill, exactly. What would these two be classified as?

Dictionary of poker.


shill


1. (n) Someone who plays for the house, to help start games or keep short or shaky games going, to keep the live players (that is, those who are not shills) from leaving. A shill is different from a stake, because a shill keeps no part of the winnings, and is usually in the employ of the house or casino. Shills often have to play according to shill rules. Shills are not common in California cardrooms, where the function is more likely to be filled by employees helping get a game started, basically just filling seats till more live players come in. Also, game starter, house player, percentage player. An old term for shill is seat-man. Also see proposition player. 2. Someone who plays like a shill, that is, a no-action player. This is a derisive term used by other players to describe a tight or otherwise conservative player. 3. (vi) Act in the role of a shill. "I usually deal for 40 minutes, and then shill till my next down." 4. (vt) Act in the role of a shill; usually followed by a or the game. "We usually have dealers shill the games while they're waiting to go on duty."

What about smaller sites using shill-bots to help get things going? I would definitely not mind playing with properly identified shill-bots with a known playing style profile. The key is for the house to identify the shill-bots and how they play. I am sure that bots can be created that will not lose more than $15 at the lower limits.


If they are designed to play worse if they lose too little, it could even be viewed as a promotion. "Come play against our losing bot-players!" Great promotion. I'd play there. And I know a few sites that could be well off with something like this.

"For most players, poker provides entertainment, recreation and social interaction rather than long term economic gain. A site which offers both the regular player and the recreational player good value for their time should not have to pay certain people to play there. Better-run brick and mortar poker rooms in high traffic areas with adequate capacity do not employ props to maintain games. Certainly, the internet offers sites potentially high trafic and infinite capacity."


David, I enjoy the fact that you enter the discussions with your customers. A well thought out post, which I still disagree with, for the most part.


I will leave the subject of indentifying of props to another post, but I should point out that Nevada put their rule in for abuses that had to do with shills and added props to it so it would not be gotten around by using shills for the same purpose. This was in the age of snatch games.


The internet offers sites potentially high traffic and infinite capacity. Along with a highly competive atmosphere. Which is still selling their product to players with different needs. You can't just turn the software on, advertise you have poker games like Hold'em, Stud, omaha, Hi/LO and Three-toed Willy and run promotions if they don't fill the needs of your customer who happens to like three-toed willy and downloads your software, funds an account then finds no three-toed willy games, EVER. Now, if at this point you asked this customer if he would mind starting a three-toed willy game with a couple of props, hoping that some other players on the site might try the game, what do you think he would say?


Before having download problems with your software after updates, I enjoyed your site. I played only Hold'em there, but I remembered very little Omaha 8/B or Stud 8/B action. Do your customers only play Hold'em or did the split players move on to a poker site which happens to have split games when they are looking for them.


As for larger B&M rooms, most have props, some just to start the small stud games in the mornings and some have high limit hosts. They also have dealers that play on the clock.


Have a nice day.


MS Sunshine

Do not try to equate your illegal online collusion with licensed casino propping. You are simply a crook and a thief.

True Poker does not have Stud games.

Sorry, Ray S.


MS Sunshine

i like the idea of shill-bots. think they use 2 have them on the old poker.com for a while there, if u were disconnected, or just didn,t act in time (it was not uncommon to know u were connected- and clicking for all u r worth but -nothing)some one or something played for you. several times i watched in quiet awe as it called with my money, and my good hand. once i swear it raised!!!!! - my wife will verify it. we used to joke the computer at the site liked to play. anyway would the bot be in communication with other bots??? would they talk about how u play, would they communicate with the dealer, would they know ur cards??? can they be programed to loose 10%, but change there mind and deside to win!!! maby we shouldn,t encourge this

"The House subsidzes their play, in effect reducing the price/risk props pay, compared to other players. Other players are entitled to know if the playing field is level, or who has a subsidy. Additionally, the fact that a prop has a "house" connection should be revealed out of basic fairness."


Fiairness? Are the cards dealt fairly? There is no collusion, most props are not sure of who is also a prop. The playing field is level, should the playing field be tipped in favor of another customer?


MS Sunshine

This is a business model decision. Cost vs benefit, is it a long term benefit to provide, at an added hourly cost, a slightly larger game selection and slightly larger player fields?


MS Sunshine

It is and it isn't. I spend most early mornings, on my laptop, on the balcony as the early morning sun rises over the ridge.


I sit in crapola games that stay short all morning, with no live ones.


On the other hand I win about 60% of the time and make about a $120 on top of this.


I love poker.


MS Sunshine

I am not slamming use of props as such. If a site can't initially attract players for whatever reason, it may have no other choice for a jump start.


Rather, I believe that concealing a basic fact that a given player has a working relationship with the House is unfair. That a player works for the House secretly has to undermine trust in a site.


Why not reveal what players work for the House ? (That a prop job becomes less lucrative is not really a reason for secrecy and one which could be remedied by higher hourly pay for props.)


(We'll just have to agree to disagree on this point. For the record, Truepoker does not allow employees to play for real money, even on their own time.)


David Gzesh, CEO

Truepoker

There is a differance between On-line and B&M cardrooms that drasticly changes the importance of revealing props.


With B&M casinos you do not leave your money in trust with the card-room. On-line you deposit, then keep your money on the site. The financial vaibility of the on-line site is important to get your purchase and winnings back is essential.


The best indicator of a successfull site is the sites activity, if all the games are propped then players could be fooled into thinking the site is successfull or atleast holding its own, when in fact the site is not. AKA Highlands.


Identify the props.


Jodder

Very astute.


MS Sunshine

Dear Sir:


Thanks for the insight into the origins of Nevada's rule requiring identification of props on request.


Since you asked about Truepoker's Omaha split games, I can tell you we really want to build those games up. To that end we have adopted some Omaha specific promotions for all players to benefit from, instead paying props to play for the House.


For example, Truepoker runs a $500 freeroll Omaha split tournament every Thursday and a $1000 guaranteed Omaha tourney for a $5 buyin/$1 fee every Saturday. Our Omaha games have picked up as a result. There will be other Omaha specific promotions coming along soon as well.


Finally, Truepoker has expanded our server capacity to handle our increased volume, which may have cleared up whatever problems led you to go elsewhere.


David Gzesh, CEO

Truepoker

MS Sunshine,


Does this latest post mean you now favor/accept disclosure of props ?


David Gzesh

It is a viewpoint I had not considered.


MS Sunshine

"With B&M casinos you do not leave your money in trust with the card-room."


Not necessarily true. Some of the larger California cardrooms have player's banks where you do exactly that. I have left my money with the Bike and Commerce on many occasions. This way I don't carry it home or to the hotel room.

most , well many of us are talking 500/1000 a game and carry it with us and u try and get it if u can. players banks are for the real high rollers. anyway u have a choice!!! not so online were moving money is getting increasingley difficult , and dangerous.i favor props to get and keep games going, but have second thoughts about using props for the purpose of creating the apperance of success(solvency). i for 1 don,t mind playing with them, and knowing they are there won,t run me off , but not all casual players feel that way. what a can of worms u have opened. i also favor props being identified on request, but not nessarley advertised. anyway internet poker being what it is , anything would be volintary. ps - i think at least 1/2 + of the online card rooms do now or have used props.

Firstly, the cash deposited at an online poker room is a major piece of the company, if not the major piece. Secondly, should one of the “larger California cardrooms” keep your money, there are legal remedies available.


The problem with this board is its integrity. Far from a vehicle for the pursuit of the Truth, it is a platform for dispensing propaganda. The most vociferous participants here, like Tony H. and the ubiquitous MS Sunshine, have financial ties to Online poker. While I understand it is too much to expect them to have respect for the forum and recuse themselves from these discussions, shouldn’t you?


Tom D

Dear customers,


I think, props are just a way of refunding fees or rakes. You can offer a cashin bonus or jsut another promo, at the end every cardroom tries to get more players.

At www.cccpoker.com (http://www.cccpoker.com) we have some props, but not very succesfully. Most of them dont want to play shorthanded and this should be the sense of props to start tables of $5-10 or lower.

If you have interest or questions please contact floorman@cccpoker.com


Thomas

"While I understand it is too much to expect them to have respect for the forum and recuse themselves from these discussions, shouldn’t you?"


I have a great deal of respect for this forum. I started this discussion. Who is going to give accurate infomation on this subject? Someone who hasn't done the job?


Since I was "outed" here, by someone for their own reasons, my bias is public knowledge. Anyone reading one of my posts can take that into account.


MS Sunshine

It's good to see different poker sites being represented in this discussion.


I saw where ARC, in their ad in this month's CARD PLAYER, were asking for props.


It is all in how poker sites wish to market this topic to their customers. Some openly say, "we have props", others say "Props are subsidized players who have an economic relationship with the House....and we don't have them at our site" or some have no comment at all.


The marketplace will decide with their rake dollars in this marketing choice.


MS Sunshine

PokerStars also doesn't use props or shills - in fact, the company's policy also precludes employees and family members of employees from playing on the site.


Even though B&M cardrooms allow (and even encourage) employees to play, we feel that it's in the best interest of our players to know that they're always playing with real, unconnected opponents. Although I miss the games (I am the former smalltalkdan, btw), I believe that it's best for all involved.


...dan


Dan Goldman

VP Marketing

PokerStars

All Iknow is that I like True Poker. They have games & they always send checks on time unlike some others I have read about.

I'm also pleased to see other sites weighing in with their views.


I have favored disclosure re props all along.


Wonder if any sites will post here to declare they secretly use props or conceal their identity.


David Gzesh, CEO

Truepoker