Poker Room, well, frankly it sucks

Just busted out on Poker Room after 6 or 7 months of playing. I'll never be back. It's a common story: When I started I was a bad player who couldn't lose and ran up over $1300. Over time I became a much better player but, like all who hang around for a few months, my cards went cold. Cryogenic cold for months, while I watch the new chimps run up huge bankrolls. I know there are those who will say that I'm on a cold streak and bitter etc. but I know this: When I play in a cardroom and have a good night, then play pokerroom I get killed. And if i've been playing poker room then go to the casino, I get killed there.


My point is that Poker Room deals cards that are weighted to allow new players to win and make it very tough for veterans to drag a pot. This keeps more tables going, thus inreasing the rake. Screw the people who are already here and hope they stay. All the good players I knew there have left with the same story. Sad really. I'm on my way to True Poker now - I hear the cards are more realistic.


For the record, my screen name on Poker Room was Morenz and any Poker Room staff can kiss my white Canadaian bum goodbye.


People be warned.

Could it be that you don't play as well as you think and are in fact a losing player? At the B&M tables where I play, I get to talk to unknown players (because they recognize me) who play just terrible (based on my observations). In almost every case they claim to be strong winning players.


Poker is much tougher and more complex than most people think. Now if you have done poorly at one site, I don't fault you for switching to another one. However, you may want to review your game. I could recommend a few books that might help.

Will you keep the same handle at TruePoker?

What Mason said is generally correct; players overestimate how good they are after a big winning streak and think they can never lose. But I do not believe this is the case in Kempie's case. I have played with Morenz on a number of occasions, and I will tell you for a fact that he is a solid player, and is no fish. The reason I empathize with his story is that I formerly played on Pokerroom at the highest limits and won almost $5,000. Then the cold cards from hell came and I couldn't win. I too took my business elsewhere. I am not convinced they deal a square game...the rivers are just too incredible...you can almost see them before they are dealt. If you have a set, the 4th flush card is guaranteed to hit. New players can't lose and build up huge rolls. I will say for a FACT that I have no proof of any of this, but I will say that after I cashed out a substantial amount, I have never been able to consistently win there again. I win on other sites, and live. The games are super soft on there, but it seems like a spiderweb. Be careful.


Player

While it's possible that Morentz is a loser this type of post really makes me wonder. Any poker site with the least amount of larceny in their heart would set things up exactly as he describes. Competetion is tough and to lose a new player to the sharks is, in the minds of unethical managment, a tragedy.

I don't understand the motivation that an online room would have to want to bust out their best customers, the ones that are playing lots of hours and keeping the games going. I mean, yes, you need new customers, but more importantly, you need to keep your best customers happy.


I would like to know how many hours the original poster played in those 6 or 7 months. If it was 500 hours I'd be more sympathetic than if it was 100 hours. I myself have had enormous ups and downs playing online, but that's the nature of poker.

I'll tell you that I played thousands of hours, and Morenz was at my table quite often. Like I said, I have no proof of anything, BUT I have played many hours of poker both live and online, and I think that these people hit more than is mathmatically valid. Again, it is just that the feel of the game is off, and rather than bitching (hey, I won a lot of money), I am going to take my business elsewhere rather than lose my money back.


Player

The loss rate for the player in question (Morenz) is very low, however even with a very small rate it can really build up after thousands of hands.

After reviewing some of his played hands I can see that he isn't exactly any "fish", but that there are definitely a few leaks (which I won't go into in public) in his playing strategy. Mason's advice about him reviewing his own game

seems like good advice.


People who have any experience in running a cardroom (online or not) already knows that

much more income is generated from regular players than from newbies/tourists. In other words, the argument that PokerRoom.com should in any way try to make inexperienced players win more often is not only untrue, it's also not logical.


We have the results of a statistical analysis of 500,000 real money hands played at PokerRoom.com. It clearly shows that our shuffle is completely random. You may also download the raw data for your own analysis.


http://www.pokerroom.com/info-integrity/statisticalAnalysis.php


Please let us know what else you poker players would like to see from an online poker room, in order to prove its integrity. You can post it here at twoplustwo or contact us

directly at support@pokerroom.com if you'd like.


Regards,

Oscar Hornell

webmaster@PokerRoom.com


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Poker Room

http://www.pokerroom.com

-Play poker online!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Does this mean if I buyin to TruePoker now I will certainly win????? If so, here I come /images/smile.gif

"People who have any experience in running a cardroom (online or not) already knows that

much more income is generated from regular players than from newbies/tourists. In other words, the argument that PokerRoom.com should in any way try to make inexperienced players win more often is not only untrue, it's also not logical."


This is absolutely correct. It is the regular players who start games and keep the games going. They are the lifeblood of any cardroom.


In 1991 I wrote a paper with Donna Harris who is now pokerroom manager for The Mirage. It is called "Card Room Theory -- A Two Way Street --" and it goes into this idea in detail. For those interested the paper appears in my book Poker Essays, Volume II.

After 10 months of expeciencing the same thing I quit Pokerroom as well. My ID. was Flush Draw and I played everyday over that period. Regrettably at the start this site seemed good and I told friends and people I met at the casino about it and they signed up. Then around the time Pokerroom had their hand giveaway the cards went funny. Every river card that hit helped someone, bricks became non exsistant. Every 2 and 3 outer started hitting. People who were only playing because of the promo were cleaning up, and regulars were getting killed. Soon most of the regulars got fed up and left. There have been many post about this exact subject, some of which started by me. I play on many sites and am a winning player on most of the including pokerroom. It got so bad that on the last day I played on the site I was predicting river cards and was right more than I was wrong. So I ask Pokerroom, do you any leaks in my game? Can you provide a statistcal analysis of your river cards? You go to great lengths to prove that you deal is correct which is good but, what about the river!!!!

You are comparing apples to oranges. Marketing Online poker is much different from marketing B&M poker because the distinction between locals and tourists disappear online, where everyone is a local. If every tourist who flies into Vegas with his wife and in-laws were looking to uproot and relocate to play poker, the comparison might have some merit. But that’s not the situation. B&M rooms can’t make regulars out of tourists. They would love to if they could, but they can’t.


Online rooms can. Everyone who buys in online is a potential regular who can fill a seat regularly, and pay the rake regularly. Each new online player has vastly more potential value than his Vegas tourist counterpart. That’s why Online sites are offering so many bonuses to come in and play poker, and that’s why B&M sites aren’t.


Tom D

>So I ask Pokerroom, do you any leaks in my game?

>Can you provide a statistcal analysis of your

>river cards? You go to great lengths to prove

>that you deal is correct which is good but, what

>about the river!


The player "Flush Draw" is a very successful player. He is up several $1,000s from playing and has played many 1000s of real money hands, so I assume he is quite good at playing poker.


From what I have seen so far in our logs, his longest losing streak lasted for just 538 hands before he had winning sessions again. This is probably only about 10-15 hours of play. I doubt that many other experienced players would consider 10 hours a very long losing streak. Considering that, and the fact that he has a large positive result from playing, I don't really see what the problem is.


We have now added more stats from our board cards (including the dealt River cards, of course).


http://www.pokerroom.com/info-integrity/statisticalAnalysis.php


As usual, you can also download the raw data from the same page.


Regards,

Oscar Hornell

webmaster@PokerRoom.com


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Poker Room

http://www.pokerroom.com

-Play poker online!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I agree 100%. If these potential regulars who play very badly are cleaned out quickly, they will not return and eventually the games may die out. I believe on Pokerroom.com, veterans who are clearly winning players are somewhat handicapped in the deal, while new players get run over with the deck. Again, no hard evidence, but I trust my instinct.


Jeff

Thank you for your prompt response with the river statisics, they are quite helpful. I realize that I have done well on your site even with a few prolonged losing streaks. That is not the issue that is frustrating your regular players. The issue is abnormal number of gutshots,trips and flushes that happen on the river. What your river stats fail to show is how many times that 2H gives someone a flush or bike and how much money is lost by players with the top 2 pair who raise the pot only to be rivered over and over again. Any good poker player relies on odds and makes his money off bad players who chase trying to beat the odds, eg. chasing a gut shot to the river. When the bad player defy odds over and over it makes it hard for a good player to win any money. If it was just me noticing this trend I would attribute it to cold cards. But when I see it happening to other players on the site and read about it from other players on this forum I have to figure there is something to it. These are not bad players noticing this, these are everyday players who have won consistantly, and all noticed it happening around the sametime. Did you not notice a lot of your regular players left after your first promo? This is the main reason why. Why did I stick around? you might ask. I have put a lot of work into learning how the players on your site play and felt that all things being equal I should make money at your site. As well other than the this problem Pokerroom in my opinion is the best run site online. You seem to take cheating seriously, you cashouts are quick and easy, your customer service is fast and very helpful and I really enjoyed playing there. All that being said I still feel something is not right with the river cards and this is what my problem is.

Where can you get info like this ? can you say something about the player xxxxhead ?

Well at least I've started a robust discussion on the subject and I sincerely thank all who have contributed. Mr. Malmuth doesn't know me from Adam so I don't blame him for suggesting that I'm a bad player. After all, that would be the easy answer. I also don't expect him to say, or even concede, anything negative about one of his advertisers. As for the time that I've put in, I've logged over 600 hours on Poker Room, enough time to experience the expected losing and winning streaks. Tom D's posting was very logical - B&M is not the same animal as an online game and he articulates his point quite clearly.

I think it's clear, now that a number of players have voiced the same opinion as mine, that I'm not whining or imagining things. I know many players who have left Poker Room for the same reasons as mine and many who still struggle there yet have the same feelings as I do. I would also suggest that the messages posted here are but a very small sample of 2+2 regulars who have had experience with Poker Room and thus represent the tip of a very large yet silent iceberg.

For the record, I remember clearly the day that the site changed. It was the first day of their "Bonus Hand" promotion, where they awarded a cash prize every 10,000 hands. In fact I won a couple myself. But, while this promotion was going on, the number of $1-$2 tables went from 4 or 5 to at least a dozen running 24/7. At first, I just assumed that a few bad players got lucky at those tables and moved up to higher stakes and got lucky there too. That was months ago and it's just become worse.

I'd also be curious to see a list of players on Poker Room (or anywhere else for that matter) who do not have "leaks in their game". Of course there are parts of my game which I could improve upon, but that's my point. I have "leaks in my game". The people I've been losing to will call three bets cold to the river with 36 off chasing that gutshot and hit! That's not leaky - it's plain stupid and defies all odds when it happens regularly.

I commend Poker Room for outstanding customer service, a sleek interface and excellent policing of suspected team games etc. However, I stand by evertything I have said. I have lost all faith in their games and, like countless others, I will not be back. Poker is a game of odds and outs but sometimes it comes down to what you feel in your gut. For me, it's no longer worth putting my money on the table when there are so many other sites to play.

I have not played at Pokeroom, BUT, as some older members here recall, I was beating this "fixed deal" drum here about Paradise, many months ago, and also have suspected it elsewhere.


When the sites respond with "look at our billions of hand analysis that show the cards are properly distributed", that is interesting and all, BUT, it really doesn't address the issue at hand in nay way.


I have no doubt that medium and long term, the 52 cards are distributed to players hands and to the board in the correct overall percentages. However, as to WHEN those distributions occur, that is an entirely different matter!!


Where is the board co-ordination analysis of WHEN those "random" distributions occur, for example;


- 4 straight cards on final board vs. expected


- 4 straight cards on final board with 1 gap vs. expected.


- 4th flush card on turn or river vs. expected


- miracle 2 outer full house card for players holding 2 pairs on river, vs. expected


etc. etc.


This is what these analysis never show us. Furthermore, we recall that when Nolan Dalla called Paradise's bluff to come with experts and examine their software, they retracted their offer.


I would love to see a genuine random long term analysis of genuine real world players unaffiliated with these sites over 10,000 or more hands and see what happens in those games, re the items and similar described above.


I can tell you that my own "mini" analysis of over 5000 hands on 2 sites to remain nameless at this time, yields anomolies that I should NOT see over that sample size.


The most glaring examples I found were, 4 straight cards on final 5 card board (including 1 gap), at far higher than the "expected" aprox. 12.15%, (above 15%), and pairs on the final board that had a bias toward high pairs 10 and above. i.e. all cards showed up on the board at the proper percentage rate, but the way they were grouped, the high value cards "paired" at higher rates than the lower value cards, thus generating disproportionate pot action, and yielding more "beats" than expected at the river.


I'd like to see a good, objective, unaffliliated, 3rd party meta study of this on Paradise, Party, Pokerstars, and Pokeroom. I suspect we might find some odd things. But the labor intensive nature of such a project is prohibitive, and finding a truly objective stattistics guru to perform it unpaid, is unlikely to say the least.


And by the way, I am highly profitable on the sites I play. That's why I keep playing. No sour grapes here about online profit.


But I believe I would be MORE profitable if I did not encounter the ocassional 100 to 150 Big bet downswings that seem to be fueled by Bat beat after bad beat after bad beat. I have actually "adjusted" my game strategy to assume more 'suckouts" then ususal on draw hands, and since doing so my profitability has improved further. But my faith in a truly random deal at the sites I play, has not.


I think the ONLINE rooms have a lot of incentives to juice the board co-ordination in the manner I suspect they may be doing. Action players like the increased action. It does tend to redistribute some of the wnning players funds to losers keeping a larger overall pool, and the rake is higher, just to name a few.


All that said though, of course large swings on such fast action (and multi table), type play, are of course expected. I recently had an 18 online hour losing streak of horrifically bad 1,2,3,4 outer bad beats resulting in a 168 big bet downswing... and then it was immediately followed by 14 hours of play that have taken me up 220 bets (so far) with no losing session.


Most of this recent gain streak, is also due to draw hands hitting at rates exceeding the expected. Pairs hitting a set, flush draws hitting, etc.

You say you adjusted your game to assume more suckouts. What did you do? my e-mail is justins@smsltd.com if you don't want to post it.