TP + Nut Flush draw

[mason55]

Playing the $10NL on Pacific. I'm sitting UTG and villain is MP1. My stack is $10 (I just sat down), his is towering over me at $11. I'm dealt A/images/graemlins/diamond.gifJ/images/graemlins/diamond.gif and limp in, as these games play extremely passively. A total 7 players see the flop.

Flop looks pretty good to me,
A/images/graemlins/club.gif K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

While the table is playing passively preflop, I can already tell how it's playing postflop. If anyone has an A, they will call my bet, if anyone has a draw they will call my bet. Kings could go either way although most will probably fold. If I check, however, I can get a king or any ace to bet out and a flush draw to try and steal it, so I go for the check raise when BB checks it to me.

Villain does something unexpected and bets 1.3 into a .65 pot. This frustrates me severely because I was hoping to get some overcalls before my check-raise went into effect. No matter, at least he's willing to play a pot with me. I decided that his bet was big enough and I would just call and reevaluate on the turn. No need to put in lots more money when I could be behind at the moment.

Turn, pot is around $3.50:
6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Now I'm really regretting not raising, as my call looks like a draw. My hope is that he won't give me credit for the draw since I didn't have anywhere close to odds to call, but this is the point in the hand where I get stuck. I don't want to come out betting on the obvious flush card, so I go ahead and let him bet. He bets $2 and I flat call. Should I have raised? The only valid raise would have been all-in with our pot-stack ratios (I think? Pot at 5.50 after his bet, my stack at 8) and that just looks to much like the flush.

River (pot is now $7.5):
3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

An interesting card. Thinking back I realized he could have been overbetting with a set on the flop to get out any flush draws, which means this 3 is death for me. Anyways, I think this is one place I have a lot of trouble and usually give my opponents too much credit for being able to lay down a hand. I bet $3 out of my $6.5 stack into the $7.5 pot, about half pot. At this point I didn't really have a plan. If he raised me I would have to call because I think I would still be good here most of the time. I didn't want to scare away a hand like AK that was thinking about calling me but I obviously wanted some value out of my hand. Just push and hope for a call?

So, the turn and the river are where I really feel like I need some help. Thanks.

[amoeba]

I realize the board paired but unless if he has 33 on the flop, I don't think he had the set on the flop right?

does he frequently limp in with AA/KK ?

I think you should have bet the flop instead of hoping for check raise. A will call you, draw will call you, which is what you want.

[wbrumfiel]

I would have raised the turn

[mason55]

Well, I wasn't realllly worried about the full house, just something that entered my mind when the river card came.

So, say I bet out the flop, $1. Turn is the 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif and pot is around $3. Pot it again now that I have the nut flush and hope he keeps calling with an A or lower flush and then get it all in on the river?

The way I played it, what do you do on the turn? Hope he comes along for the ride? I really wanted to get some overcalls because once people call a bet in this game they're very reluctant to lay down to a raise, but I think you're right about leading out and taking control of the hand from the beginning.

[amoeba]

if I bet out the pot on the flop, what I do on the turn depends on how many other callers there are.

If there are 2 callers+, I think I check the turn and hope one of them has the underflush or hopes to bluff the scarecard.

If its 1 caller, I think I bet out again for 1/2 pot.

[mason55]

[ QUOTE ]
if I bet out the pot on the flop, what I do on the turn depends on how many other callers there are.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, now I'm curious on the logic behind betting out instead of going for a check raise. I'm not saying I'm right, because I really doubt that I am, but with this many players on the flop and both the A and K it seems like someones going to take a stab and I can trap some dead money with a raise.

[TrailofTears]

I bet the flop for about pot because as the OP said, now when his flush hits he doesn't know how to get money in without losing action. If he bets the flop, it will disguise his flush. On the turn, I bet out again for about 1/2-2/3 pot to feign fear of the flush. If I get played back at, great. If I get caller(s), great. Either way it is money coming to me. On the river, as amoeba said, there isn't any real reason to fear a boat since AA and KK are unlikely holdings and if he hit quads so be it. I would pot it on the river and expect to get called by an obviously worse hand.

- ToT

[amoeba]

I will put it this way.

if you check raise the flop, what hand do you represent? do you see an ace low kicker calling? do you see a lower flush draw calling?

All you get is their initial flop bet.

if you bet out say 2/3 pot on the flop, what does your hand look like? an Ace with weak kicker trying to protect against the flush draw. lower flush draws will call, guys with AT, A9, A8 will call.

your other alternative on the flop is to check call. But I really don't think you need to check raise like this.

you have the best hand most likely and you have the best draw. There is nothing you are afraid of.

[mason55]

Alright, yeah, I guess I just need to work on my higher level thinking. Thanks for explaining it so clearly. This was one of those hands where everything seemed to go my way but I still felt lost for a lot of the hand.

[amoeba]

its cool man. alot of the times the hands in which you can't narrow down villain's hands are the ones that make you the most money.

If you think villains are loose enough to call your flop check raise with just the A or a flush draw, then I think its fine. But alot of the times, they don't call.

In this hand when most of the opponents are either drawing dead or drawing to 3 outs, I think you got to string them along.

[TheWorstPlayer]

What about A3 or K3?

[TrailofTears]

Touche' my friend, touche'.

[TrailofTears]

Though I would expect to see a raise on the flop with those hands, wouldn't you?

[TheWorstPlayer]

He overbet the pot on the flop with his two pair. Then when the flush hit on the turn, he bet weakly trying to get more money from an ace, but scared of the flush. Then he filled on the river. Sounds fairly plausible, no?

[mason55]

He bet out, in fact he over bet the pot, which makes them possible holdings, 2 pair trying to push out the flush draw.