20/40 Mirage KK

[Joe Tall]

Same game as my 66 post.

I open raise in EMP w/K /images/graemlins/club.gifK /images/graemlins/spade.gif. Only the blinds call. The SB seems to be a regular, running bad but playing fairly solid. The BB is no worry.

Flop: 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

SB bets, BB calls, I call

Turn: A /images/graemlins/spade.gif

SB bets, BB folds, I call.

River: T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

SB bets, I call.

Go Pats!
Joe Tall

[DcifrThs]

it looks like sb made a loose call preflop with Ahxh and hit the ace on the turn...i think the flop should be raised...i'd play this one faster on teh flop...why wouldn't the sb take a standard c-r the set line? looks like a good draw or one pair hand on the flop.

i'd raise the flop but other than that...welll...maybe fold the river if you think he'd bet other pocket pairs like this..but that ace had to scare him so i dont know if he'd bet a worse hand expecting you to call heads up on the river other than a bluff...but in the end i play it the same was post flop...but raise the flop.

-Barron

[KillingAristotle]

Were you planning to raise the turn if a brick hit? Waiting for your equity to go up before you popped it? I personally think raising the flop is a good idea. That's a draw heavy board which leads me to believe SB probably has *some* piece of it, and wouldn't be folding to a flop raise. Also, you need to make them pay for their draws, blah blah. Anyways i'm sure you know all this so you must have had some other reason. I'd like to hear it.

[KillingAristotle]

[ QUOTE ]
it looks like sb made a loose call preflop with Ahxh and hit the ace on the turn...

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you assume SB hit the ace on the turn? Just because they bet again? I think it's quite conceivable that he/she is still drawing, especially because of the preflop action.

[onegymrat]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
it looks like sb made a loose call preflop with Ahxh and hit the ace on the turn...

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you assume SB hit the ace on the turn? Just because they bet again? I think it's quite conceivable that he/she is still drawing, especially because of the preflop action.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps because villain also bet the river.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
it looks like sb made a loose call preflop with Ahxh and hit the ace on the turn...

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you assume SB hit the ace on the turn? Just because they bet again? I think it's quite conceivable that he/she is still drawing, especially because of the preflop action.

[/ QUOTE ]

if the sb plays solid post flop the river bet often indicates a desire for a call. further, the turn bet indicates a holding that does not want to be checked through. since the description of the sb is that he is fairly solid and not running well, Ah8h may look better than it normally does. not everybody is perfect and sb may have then been betting the draw on the flop.

and even if he did it again on the turn, the fact that a solid player has now bet twice and another (obviously noticeably solid player) calls both on the turn and flop it would make it more likely that he'd call the river. so if the sb wants a call on the river, it seems that its a hand that has completed. betting a flush draw with the ace on the flop seems straightforward.

therefore i think he hit the ace. but since there are other possibilities the call down without a raise, given no raise on the flop is correct IMO.

-Barron

[KillingAristotle]

Ah, good point. Apparently I chose to ignore the river bet.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
Ah, good point. Apparently I chose to ignore the river bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

its not just the river bet...its the river bet given all the action and description of the player.

Barron

[KillingAristotle]

Yeah I understand this. I think at the time I was just trying to point that during the hand it was still unclear whether or not the turn bet meant an Ace. I don't exactly know what this contributes to the discussion, though, considering it's still probably not a good idea to raise the turn once the ace comes.

[Ezcheeze]

Ever heard of bluffing/semibluffing? He doesn't have to be bluffing or value betting a worse hand (I know the poster said he seems pretty solid but that doesn't mean he is solid) very often to make calling down profitable. I'm really baffled as to why you put the opponent on one hand. He could have a whole range of hands here. And if you were only led to the conclusion that this player had that hand by all action +river action then your comments only apply to the river and aren't very important since by that time you are calling anyway given pot size.

I also would normally raise the flop but I like sometimes calling here to raise a good turn.

-Ezcheeze

[TStoneMBD]

raise the turn, check the river, fold to 3bet... or call down depending

[hockey1]

The only questionable street IMHO is the turn. I think a raise is the better play even though the A does complicate things. Given SB's bet out on the flop the only reasonable hand you're behind is Ahxh (or maybe a set). It's much more likely that you're ahead though and, unless SB has a set, it's also very unlikely you'll get re-raised.

[lil']

FWIW, I probably play it the same. A solid player bets out despite the ace falling, and he called from the small blind. So much for the raise.

OTOH, if you raise the turn, two things may take place...
1) If he checks the river, you put in the same amount as you would if you called down by checking the river
2) You may get a weakish type ace to fold (if he is that type of player)

Of course, if you are 3 bet, you can toss it.

So maybe raising ther turn is a little better, when you add in the possibility of a better hand folding.

Edit - Oh yeah, GO PATS! Iggles are dead meat...

[Paluka]

I like raising the flop. There are a lot of cards that will scare you out of raising the turn even though you will still likely be ahead but are too afraid of the 3 bet. The big blind just calling the flop bet is a good sign he has nothing and raisnig the flop might be your only chance to get another bet out of him.

[amerksmann22]

I would lead from the SB here if I hit a set or had a flush draw.

I think given his range of hands a raise on any street is terrible. If he has a draw, I want him to bet the river (bluff), a turn raise stops him from doing that. If he hit an A with the A/images/graemlins/heart.gif then again I dont want to raise the turn. If he did flop a set then again a raise is terrible.

I like to smooth call all the way here once the A hits the turn.

I think Joe played this hand perfectly.

[Joe Tall]

I like raising the flop. There are a lot of cards that will scare you out of raising the turn even though you will still likely be ahead but are too afraid of the 3 bet.

My line was to raise a blank on the turn as I think the only reason to raise the flop is, " raisnig the flop might be your only chance to get another bet out of him".

I don't like the position I'm in after that. It's as if the button phantomly changes, on the turn, where they both check to me, and I'm putting the first aggression in.

Go Pats!
Joe Tall

[Joe Tall]

So maybe raising ther turn is a little better, when you add in the possibility of a better hand folding

Getting 3-bet blows and if he has a hand like 99, he's putting money in my stack.

Yes, Greg, GO PATS! Thanks for your responses and hope things are well.
-Joe Tall

[limitholdemshark]

wow.plz vist atlantic city and play at my table!!
ur flop call was sooo bad mr.calling station.
take control let the others at the table fear betting into u after ur pfr. ur passive play feeds us professional players.the reason y i sound so harsh is bcause maybe a good kick in the but will let u c the error of ur ways and lift ur play up 2 another level.

good luck

the shark

[Joe Tall]

ur flop call was sooo bad mr.calling station.

What kind of call station raises the flop and turn w/an underpair. Come to foxwoods this weekend, I'll buy you a meal.

Welcome to the forum,
Joe Tall

[limitholdemshark]

i wouldnt slow play pocket kk on the flop mutiway because u r afraid of an ace hitting the turn.the name of the game with that flop is to ram and jam it to make the pot odds deplorable for hands that like to play over cards.i luv it when i have middle pair and an overcard and the pfr calls a flop bet nnow i can raise with the idea to either take the free card or bet out depending on what hits the board on the turn.rest assured the players fear me as a very solid player so i am not 3bet easly.so come to ac and ill buy u dinner at the old homestead steakhouse and get the dinner outlay back in spades lol
good luck

the ac shark

[elysium]

hi joe

should be raising the flop.

[worm33]

if u had the king of hearts i dont mind the flop call although i wouldnt do it....Without the king of hearts a flop raise is absolutely mandatory.

[me454555]

A flop raise acomplishes nothing b/c they are are going to call anyways and he has no one left to act behind him whom he can charge to draw. Each player will be getting signifcantly better than 9:1 to call this raise and will most likely do so, then check to Joe on the turn.

By waiting for the turn to raise, he will be able to trap them for an extra bet on the big streets. The only downside to this play is when the turn brings an ace as it did. It makes for a very tricky situation.

[YoureToast]

My view is that heads up the flop-call is justifiable...3-handed makes this a lot riskier but not completely insane. If you had raised the flop, when the A dropped, you'd know a lot more about whether they had it based on their action (ie. if they bet out with the A or check raised, you could drop). Instead, your call mandated your turn and river action, which in my view was right on the money.

[Stork]

Joe, I think the turn is either raise or fold time. You are getting 2.5-1 effective odds to call down, and on the turn you either gotta put him on a heart draw, an ace, top pair, or some mix thereof. That said, you would need to be at least 70% sure he has an ace here to fold, and I don't think you have that kind of certainty at all, especially since the SB has every reason to continue betting since he hasn't been raised since before the flop. So I would raise the turn, and if you are 3-bet that would suck, but it is pretty noticable if you raise and fold to a 3-bet and I don't think you want that on your conscience so if 3-bet I would call and then probably fold the river. If SB happens to check to you on the river, show it down for free.

[roy_miami]

I think this is a horrible spot to make this raise the turn check the river move. You are either ahead or behind. if your ahead of something like 99 or worse you lose a bet as he'll just fold to the raise. If he's semi bluffing a draw you gain nothing when he misses and lose an extra bet if he hits, leads the river and you call. If the third heart comes, he leads the river and you fold, you missed out on a showdown for the same price and you may start to have doubts for the rest of the session that you may have been dupped. If he has a weak Ace you don't give him the opportunity to fold on the river with the check. If he has 2 pair or a set on the turn he'll reraise and you miss the opportunity to outdraw him on the river.

I prefer an abc flop raise. Given you didn't raise the flop I would have just called down as you did.

[Stork]

[ QUOTE ]
I think this is a horrible spot to make this raise the turn check the river move.

[/ QUOTE ]
Ok, let's see why.

[ QUOTE ]
You are either ahead or behind.

[/ QUOTE ]
Really...

[ QUOTE ]
if your ahead of something like 99 or worse you lose a bet as he'll just fold to the raise.

[/ QUOTE ]
Not necessarily. He may call with a hand like this, but it's unlikely he has such a hand anyway.

[ QUOTE ]
If he's semi bluffing a draw you gain nothing when he misses and lose an extra bet if he hits, leads the river and you call.

[/ QUOTE ]
The whole point of raising the turn is because there is a decent chance he is semi-bluffing the draw. I don't know why you say that you gain nothing; what you gain is an extra bet on the turn when you have the best hand. And I don't think I'd be calling a river bet if bet into again.

[ QUOTE ]
If the third heart comes, he leads the river and you fold, you missed out on a showdown for the same price and you may start to have doubts for the rest of the session that you may have been dupped.

[/ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't have any doubts here.

[ QUOTE ]
If he has a weak Ace you don't give him the opportunity to fold on the river with the check.

[/ QUOTE ]
I seriously doubt top pair is folding for one more bet in a heads up pot.

[ QUOTE ]
If he has 2 pair or a set on the turn he'll reraise and you miss the opportunity to outdraw him on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]
I said I would call a turn reraise.

[ QUOTE ]
I prefer an abc flop raise. Given you didn't raise the flop I would have just called down as you did.

[/ QUOTE ]
A flop raise doesn't protect your hand well offering opponents a minimum of 10-1. A turn raise would protect your hand much better. Unfortunately a scare card came, but I wouldn't be so quick to give my opponent credit for an ace because nobody has raised him so if he has top pair with something like 87s, he has no reason to think the ace hurt him. Plus, a turn raise from Hero would look a heck of a lot like an ace to Heros opponents, especially since Hero raised preflop. If Heros opponents think he has an ace, they're not getting tricky with a worse hand on the river which is why I think you can fold to a river bet if you raise the turn.

[roy_miami]

One of my problems when putting decent opponents on hands is I think about what and how I would play certain hands from the SB against a PFR with a player in between. The only hands I would lead from the SB here would be a semi-bluff where I don't care if PFR raises or folds. Or I have a big hand like a set or 2 pair and am looking to 3 bet the flop or pull a stop and go or something. Everything else I would checkraise including full out bluffs. Maybe checkraising at the Mirage is not a commonly used play. And its possible the SB plays his hands differently than I do. Looking at how the hand played out I put the SB on Ax hearts or a smaller flush draw or a big hand like a set or 2 pair. Maybe I'm being too short sighted and this is very likely a leak in my game.

There are 2 problems I have with your raise the turn check the river plan. First, I thinks its a mistake to call a 3-bet, I think if you raise and get 3-bet you must fold. Second, if your going to represent a big Ace, I think you should continue to represent it on the river as there is a good chance SB has a weak ace that he may lay down to a river bet (if he believes you).

[Stork]

Getting 3-bet would really suck, however I can't imagine it would happen often in this scenario. I would call mainly for image considerations, however, if there is a chance SB would 3-bet a small two pair or a flush draw, then calling becomes absolutely correct. I don't know if SB would, though.
Your argument for betting the river if checked to is that you think SB will lay down a weak ace often enough to show a profit. I can't argue this point well except that I doubt SB will lay down an ace often enough, but it's hard to know withouth knowing the SB. Also, if SB did believe you had a better ace, I think he would fold to your turn raise, and if there is any chance of him folding an ace to a turn raise, that would be a huge benefit.
I think your range of hands for the SB is reasonable, which is why I would strongly consider folding the turn. If you are against an ace or a set you are drawing to 2 outs, and if you are against an ace and a four-flush you are drawing to 1 out. However, I think you will be up against a flush draw often, against which you are drawing to 37 outs. Against 2 pair you have 8 outs. There's also a chance he is betting what was top pair on the flop, which would leave you drawing to 41 outs, and I would expect SB to have that more often than he would have 2 pair or a set. I would be suprised to see 2 pair or a set here often, and although you will be behind fairly often, I think the pot has become large enough that it is worth protecting. I am still torn between raising and folding though, because if you are behind to an ace, your drawing virtually dead.

[Joe Tall]

This hand is pretty simple, boys.

I called the flop to raise a blank turn/river (depending on if the BB was riding. Once the Ace comes off, I cannot open myself to a 3-bet and let a lesser hand fold, so I called.

At the showdown, my opponent showed 88.

Go Pats!
Joe Tall

[Stork]

Do you think he would've called a turn raise with 88?

[Joe Tall]

Do you think he would've called a turn raise with 88?

Hell no, who would? Maybe online, you'll find one but, live, rarely.

Go Pats!
Joe Tall

[JoeU]

Hey Joe,

Are you on a west coast poker tour? /images/graemlins/grin.gif If you're back in town, call me. I could be convinced to go to FW this weekend (the Mrs is out of town and grandma is babysitting!).

I stopped short of the results so I could post my thoughts.

I think you should raise the flop. You may be ahead due to the semi raggedy board, but there is a flush draw out there, and I guess an ugly straight type of draw. Its not so much that you want to win the pot right there (which is not a bad thing), but you are also in a position to charge the max for drawing when they are not there yet.

If you were in the SB's shoes, would you bet out with top pair? The way I read him, he either does have an A, or if he doesn't, when you just call the turn, he thinks YOU don't have an A. If he thinks you don't have an A, than he's taking a shot in the river against 1 opponent.

In the end, the rest of the hand looks ok, but I'd rather see you raise the flop and take charge in the hand against a small field.

Call me if you are in town and we'll do lunch at FW.

Joe