River Bluff on 20/40 Player

[amerksmann22]

Foxwoods 10/20...against know solid 20/40 player

Loose player limpe EP, I call (CO+1) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 20/40 Player Raises in Cutoff, Button Call, BB, Limper & I call.

Flop: Q/images/graemlins/club.gif 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif (5 players, pot: $105)

BB, EP, I all check, CO Bets, Button Calls, BB & Limper fold, I call.

Turn: K/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players, pot: $135)

Check through...I have the CO on AQ.

River: K/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players, pot: $135)

I bet, CO Raises, Button Folds...CO has AQ, i think, I 3-bet

Is this crazy...I felt my read was dead on and I knew he was capable of folding to a 3-bet.

In fact, I think he raised and thought to himself: "I can easily fold to a 3-bet here"

Comments on all streets welcome...i think the call on the flop is close, a gut shot and back-door flush draw but I was getting 13.5-1 + implied odds if I hit.

[34TheTruth34]

who's the player? who are you? in general I don't like it, but since it sounds like you have a pretty good read, it might work often enough. I haven't played in the 20/40 for long, but there are some "super laydown" players that I would make this play against. Against everyone else I've encountered, I think it's pretty bad 'cause they're calling.

[amerksmann22]

Player in questions is a younger player...22-26 yr old. I am pretty sure he is a "super laydown" type of opponent. I only know of 6-7 regular 20/40 players...this player is not Mark, Manny, JoeTall, or Sublime.

I wouldnt make this play against any other player. I am not reckless, lol.

My image is a Tight-Aggressive and they are a few regulars at the table that know me as a Solid Player and this oppenent of course picked up on that through table talk and what not. I hadnt been out of line the whole time 20/40 player was at the table.

[TStoneMBD]

i like it. if it worked, gj.

[SA125]

[ QUOTE ]
i think the call on the flop is close, a gut shot and back-door flush draw but I was getting 13.5-1 + implied odds if I hit.


River: K (3 players, pot: $135)

I bet, CO Raises, Button Folds...CO has AQ, i think, I 3-bet

Is this crazy...I felt my read was dead on and I knew he was capable of folding to a 3-bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think the flop call is close at all. On the river there's $235 now in the pot to call $20 more and close out the action. Super Laydown type or not, I can't see him folding.

[nate1729]

I like it. This is a good spot because you can represent a specific hand; LAG that I am, I'm always looking for bluffing spots with exactly this characteristic, and they don't come up all that often in limit hold'em. If he has AQ, he can only beat a stone bluff. Even though 2BB is expensive, I think it's the percentage play here.

I gotta know -- did it work? (Was it Fabio, by any chance?)

--Nate

[amerksmann22]

If the play doesnt work...
I have a Tight-Aggressive image, I think showing that I am capable of a River 3-bet bluff would be good for my image plus I will get a few more loose calls when I have have "real" hands.

[amerksmann22]

I am not sure if it was Fabio but this player made a huge mistake by checking through on the Turn...if he bet the turn, I was folding. He gave me the information I needed to bluff him on the river.

[nate1729]

Exactly. If you play any stud, a very similar thing happens, when someone has an open pair or two or something, and you seem to have big cards (people get more suspicious of missed-draw bluffs than utter-bullshit bluffs.) Bets and checkraises on 7th are often good percentage plays, because you're obviously representing two bigger pair, and they can only beat a stone bluff.

The curiosity is killing me; now that I've improved your stud game, will you tell me if the bluff worked?

--Nate

[lil']

Why would a player who is too timid to bet A-Q on the turn raise it on the river?

Just seems a little contradictory to me.

[amerksmann22]

He will raise the river now because a 2nd King hit. Now the situation in his mind is raise and fold to a 3-bet...I am pretty sure that was his thinking.

He checks the turn b/c he has AQ... and only a K coud hurt him and it hit.. Now he can check through the turn b/c no overcard hurts him.

He made a mistake by not betting the turn though.

[CanKid]

Hi amerksmann22,

[ QUOTE ]
My image is a Tight-Aggressive and they are a few
regulars at the table that know me as a Solid Player

[/ QUOTE ]

What hand are you trying to represent based on your preflop overlimp with a loose caller, and check/calling the flop, a slowplayed set? Just seems too odd for me to fold this river in the CO's shoes.

Hope it worked out,
Jay

[amerksmann22]

He thought for about 15-20 seconds and said "Your King is Good." and tossed his hand into the muck. I knew he could talk himself into being beat. He is just one of the players.

I flipped my hand face up as the dealer pushed me the pot. It is good for the game to show a bluff, right...

[CanKid]

[ QUOTE ]
I flipped my hand face up as the dealer pushed me the pot. It is good for the game to show a bluff, right...

[/ QUOTE ]

Ack

[nate1729]

Probably better not to show that one, I'd say, especially if there are weak players at the table... I'm not one to go to extreme lengths to create what I perceive as the psychological conditions I want, but if there are people there playing their crappy ABCesque games, I don't want to give them anything to think about. And why show the folder you're capable of making that play?

Now, if the ego trip was worth the slight loss in EV, that's another matter. But I'd like to think I wouldn't show that one.

--Nate

[nate1729]

Huh, that's kind of a good point. K6s and K5s, maybe, though those are loose preflop calls, which don't quite fit with his table image. I still like the play, though, because it says unequivocally, "I have a king," which is enough against some players.

[amerksmann22]

I agree but my friend was at the table and I just couldnt resist.

He would have never believed me. Also, I dont think I lose that much in EV. Most thinking opponents there have played with me and I am rarely out of line.

[nate1729]

Heh, I gotcha. (But what about the non-thinking opponents?)

[elysium]

hi amerk

if you think he will lay it down, the 3-bet bluff is fine. the only mistake that you can make is not flipping it over at the end of the hand, no matter what. one of the reason this play is o.k. is for the increased action later on. you never make these type bluffs heads-up, and then muck face down except in situations in which your opponents are folding so often that bluffing is more profitable than getting the bets in there, and that's usually not the case, although even when it isn't, this type bluff should work often enough in this situation, if you have given a correct assessment of it. and i think you have here. i think he folds. just remember though that you have given away more information in your post than you will likely be able to retrieve from your opponent. i have more to work on here than you had at the time the hand was being played, so i think he folds more surely than you thought he would fold at the time that you made this bluff. when you read the threads, of which i am sure the great majority endorse your river action, remember that the other posters also have more info than you did because of the added synoptic overtones enveloped in successful resolution. you had no such additional information, so take the compliments with a grain of salt. you put a lot of capital up into the ethers of whimsy wishing for gain, and took dire risk doing so, each and every time you envelop your synoptical overtones in failure, and so shall say the crowd. that you didn't this time is very fortunate indeed.

you were very lucky young man.

[amerksmann22]

they are non-thinking...two hours from now there are still non-thinking.

They wont remember that hand or they werent even paying attention when it happened.

[InchoateHand]

priceless.

[SA125]

Nice hand. Though your description "against know solid 20/40 player" was either generous or maybe he just had a bad hand. His turn play was weak and his river play horrible.

[limitholdemshark]

ur preflop call was off the mark.im a firm beliver that tight is right.with 98s u need 2 have at least 3 other callers prior 2 ur call(and i dont count the blinds as callers)ur pot odds with only 1 caller do not justify u entering the pot. so everything that happened after that is ur punishment for not following the maxim"tight is right"next time in this same situation with 1 caller and ur co1 if u cant raise the pot dont call fold.
most players look 4 reasons to call preflop.
i,as a master limit player,look 4 reasons to fold preflop.
then im super agressive in my playing style.

[amerksmann22]

limitshark,

you are the mann

[roy_miami]

[ QUOTE ]
Nice hand. Though your description "against know solid 20/40 player" was either generous or maybe he just had a bad hand. His turn play was weak and his river play horrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

What was so bad about his river play? I would wager that if he did have AQ and posted his hand on these boards for discussion he would get more than a few responses telling him he can easily raise the river because he can safely fold to a 3-bet...

I think an opponent will 3-bet bluff the river far less than 5% of the time.

[IndianOcean]

roy_miami i couldn't agree more.. Very good respond.

[SA125]

[ QUOTE ]
What was so bad about his river play? I would wager that if he did have AQ and posted his hand on these boards for discussion he would get more than a few responses telling him he can easily raise the river because he can safely fold to a 3-bet...

I think an opponent will 3-bet bluff the river far less than 5% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Roy, I like your take on most hands but disagree here. Simple question of which would be worse - calling 1 more bet and losing or folding 1 more bet when you would have won?

Which has more importance here - his action and raise or the size of the pot?

The pot is $235 and $20 to call and close it out. That's 11.75-1 and 8.5%. The 3 better checked the turn. Missed check raise? Sure, maybe. Maybe not. Based on the size of the pot, to call it a safe fold is pushing it.

[esspo]

[ QUOTE ]
I flipped my hand face up as the dealer pushed me the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why don't you just open your wallet and give the guy $2,500, because that's what you just cost yourself this year if you are both regulars. You said he is the type to talk himself into thinking he is beat. Well he isn't going to do that against you again. That was a horrible, terrible, [insert long list of explitives here], rookie mistake. You HAD tremendous folding equity against this opponent and you screwed it up. Good work.

Also, you need to be honest with yourself about why you flipped your cards over. The fact that you posted the hand tells me it had nothing to do with making the game better.

[esspo]

[ QUOTE ]
What was so bad about his river play?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the real question is: what was so bad about his turn/river combo? I think we can all agree that when viewed together his line is horrible (If he did in fact have AQ).

[SA125]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the real question is: what was so bad about his turn/river combo? I think we can all agree that when viewed together his line is horrible (If he did in fact have AQ).

[/ QUOTE ]

This was a quote from esspo and it makes my point better than I did.

Look at the river based on their turn action. The CO gave his hand away when he checked the turn K. So when he raises the river, the 3 better knows he doesn't have one.

The CO should have realized that he left himself open to a move. Looking at it that way, getting 12-1 and calling 1 more instead of safely folding isn't close.

[robert_utk]

if you want to bluff this player why not check raise the turn? then he can not call your river bet (if your read IS dead on)

[nate1729]

I've had enough 4-8 dimwits "wake up" after some fancypants showed a bluff that I doubt this statement.

[nate1729]

Hey, bud, it's probably too much to ask right away for you to write half-coherently ~and~ to discuss the matter under discussion (hint: not the preflop action), so why don't you take them one at a time?

And if putting a move on at the river to win a nice pot against an opponent who doesn't realize that I'm very unlikely to have a K is my punishment for making a marginally-good-to-marginally-bad preflop call... well, then, sign me up.

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
if you want to bluff this player why not check raise the turn? then he can not call your river bet (if your read IS dead on)


[/ QUOTE ]

If you didnt notice, the guy checked through on the turn, thus making a CR impossible. Also, the poster was only able to put the villian on AQ after he checked through on the turn.