PP $22 hand for review

[Turk]

I was reasonably sure I had the best hand ...until he kept cold calling me, how was my betting on this hand, should it have been any different?


Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

BB (t1082)
UTG (t1115)
MP1 (t1095)
MP2 (t1070)
CO (t2031)
Hero (t1505)
SB (t102)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls t50, CO folds, Hero calls t50, SB folds, BB checks.

Flop: (t175) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, MP2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t200</font>, BB calls t200, MP2 folds.

Turn: (t575) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t400</font>, BB calls t400.

River: (t1375) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: t1375

[cha59]

Why didn't you raise preflop?
A raise of 200 before the flop generally eliminates guesswork later on in a hand.
You gather information by raising, and you might win the pot right there, which is not a bad thing.
You have no idea what BB has at this point because you didn't raise him preflop. He might have A 7, or even a 3 in his hand.

[microbet]

He obviously didn't end up having the 3 or 77 or something like that, but I'd probably check the turn depending on what I've seen from the player. Call on the flop from the BB with no good draw on the board looks too much like a 3.

[microbet]

TJ Cloutier said the way to play JJ is to raise before the flop and fold after it. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Phil Van Sexton]

As stated already, you must raise pre-flop.

On the flop, you overbet the pot. There are no obvious draws, so there's really no point in this. I'd bet 125.

You then put a ton of money in on the turn. You built the pot to 1375 and you would've been in a tough spot if he bet the river.

What exactly is your turn bet trying to accomplish? He already called your flop overbet, so he seems unlikely to fold.

He's not drawing, so you are better off checking the turn. If he has x7 or 88, he'll bet the river and you can call. If he has a monster, you won't lose quite as much when he bets on the river.

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
As stated already, you must raise pre-flop.

On the flop, you overbet the pot. There are no obvious draws, so there's really no point in this. I'd bet 125.

You then put a ton of money in on the turn. You built the pot to 1375 and you would've been in a tough spot if he bet the river.

What exactly is your turn bet trying to accomplish? He already called your flop overbet, so he seems unlikely to fold.

He's not drawing, so you are better off checking the turn. If he has x7 or 88, he'll bet the river and you can call. If he has a monster, you won't lose quite as much when he bets on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I agree and disagree with your thought process here, Phil.

First, yes, a RR PF to ~250 is in order,

Second, on the flop, there is 175 in the pot, he bets 200, which is ok, since he really doesn't mind taking down the pot right here. Betting 125 gives your opponent ~2.3-1 on his call should he have QK or so, and even AK cannot specifically ruled out. If the opponent has QQ-AA, you likely hear from him here.

On the turn, Hero's action is partially predicated on how quickly his opponent made the call on the flop. His opponent having a 3 is not likely just from PF action, however a 7 is a possibility if he has something like A7. If this is me, barring any feelings I get from the flop call, I make a similar bet as Turk did on the turn.

I feel the river should be treated as a blank and bet strongly. If you were beat, you likely would have heard about it on the turn. His river check is usually going to mean he has a hand he doesn't love, but might catch a bluff. VERY likely he has A7, 78, or 89 here, all of which you have beat. I'd have put him allin on the river, as the only realistic hands that beat you here are A3 and 77, as 88, 99, QQ-AA all would have raised you by now in almost every case. If the opponent is a hardcore habitual sandbagger, then maybe I slow down some here, and give him a chance to bluff, but otherwise, there is little reason to think you are behind and a LOT of reasons to think you can bet safely and be called.

[Phil Van Sexton]

[ QUOTE ]
Betting 125 gives your opponent ~2.3-1 on his call should he have QK or so, and even AK cannot specifically ruled out.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is true, but JJ will hold up 75% of the time vs those 2 hands after this flop. Therefore, they are making a mistake calling 125 here. Furthermore, if they don't hit on the turn, they will often have to pay more to see the river, so their effective odds are even worse.

There are 2 main reasons that I bet 125 here...
1. 60% is my standard bet on the flop, and I need a good reason to deviate from that. I bet out on the flop a lot whether it hits me or not. I bet the same and let them figure it out.

2. My goal with JJ at this level is to avoid losing my whole stack. The best way (I've found) to do this is to avoid building a huge pot.

In the OP, the villian is basically pot committed after the turn. Why did he call 60% of his stack on the turn? This is really concerning. When people get monster hands, they do strange things. That being said, I agree that you have to put him all-in on this river for his last 350.

Once a ton of money goes into the pot, it's hard to tell if calls and raises mean anything. In this hand, I'd really like to have a better handle on things before losing 2/3 of my stack.

[two_dogs]

[ QUOTE ]
On the turn, Hero's action is partially predicated on how quickly his opponent made the call on the flop. His opponent having a 3 is not likely just from PF action, however a 7 is a possibility if he has something like A7. If this is me, barring any feelings I get from the flop call, I make a similar bet as Turk did on the turn

[/ QUOTE ]
Why does the pre flop action make you think the BB doesn't have a 3? The pot wasn't raised and he checked.

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
On the turn, Hero's action is partially predicated on how quickly his opponent made the call on the flop. His opponent having a 3 is not likely just from PF action, however a 7 is a possibility if he has something like A7. If this is me, barring any feelings I get from the flop call, I make a similar bet as Turk did on the turn

[/ QUOTE ]
Why does the pre flop action make you think the BB doesn't have a 3? The pot wasn't raised and he checked.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah, yet another case of Daliman not reading the HH fully. The BB could DEFINITELY have a 3 here. Based on the play, I may too then have checked the turn to induce a bluff on the river, and if he checked the river, i bet ~250. Soory, Early AM eye crusties, I guess. I had read it as the limper coming along flop on.