*Superbowl thread* Please explain American football to me.

[partygirluk]

I would like to watch the Superbowl this year. American Football (AF) seems like a decent sport, the event is massive internationally, and I might even get to see a breast at half time.

The problem is, I don't know much about the sport.

This is what I know:

Each team has about 13 players on it.
They play 4 quarters of about 15-20 minutes or so.

They face off in big lines, with one team in possession of the ball. That team typically passes the ball back to some guy called the Quarterback who tries to throw it to some fast guy. Or sometimes I think they don't pass it back to the Qback but give it to some muscly guy who tries to do some bulldozing.

Anyway, the team in possession has 4 attempts to gain 10 metres. If they do this, they get 4 more attempts. If they don't, possession changes.

If some guy manages to pass his opponents' end line and throw the ball to the floor, this is called a Touchdown, which is good and worth about 5 points. I think that team then has the option to kick the ball in between the posts and above the bar for 2 more points, but I might be confused with rugby.

Teams can hit something called a Fieldgoal. Some dude gets to kick a stationary ball and tries to get it over the bar. This is worth about 2 points. I don't know why a team would be awarded this opportunity.

I do not know what is considered a legal/illegal tackle, how many substitutions can be made, or anything else.

I do not know who is in the final. I would appreciate if you could give me this information. Also, tell me who I should support and why. Typically I will go with the underdog, but I am open to persuasion.

Thanks.

[daryn]

you would wanna root for the eagles, since the patriots already messed you boys up in the revolutionary war.

[partygirluk]

Could you please inform me of the prefix of these teams.

[Homer]

Each team has about 13 players on it.

11 on offense, 11 on defense.

They play 4 quarters of about 15-20 minutes or so.

15

They face off in big lines, with one team in possession of the ball. That team typically passes the ball back to some guy called the Quarterback who tries to throw it to some fast guy. Or sometimes I think they dont pass it back to the Qback but give it to some muscly guy who tries to do some bulldozing.

Heh, pretty much.

Anyway, the team in possession has 4 attempts to gain 10 metres. If they do this, they get 4 more attempts. If they don't, possession changes.

10 yards. Usually, if they don't make it in three tries they kick the ball to the other team (punt), basically giving up their chance to score in exchange for making it harder for the other team to score.

If some guy manages to pass his opponents' end line and throw the ball to the floor, this is called a Touchdown, which is good and worth about 5 points. I think that team then has the option to kick the ball in between the posts and above the bar for 2 more points, but I might be confused with rugby.

They don't have to touch the ball to the ground, just cross the goal line. It is worth 6 points, and the 'extra point' is worth, you guessed it, 1 point.

Teams can hit something called a fieldgoal. Some dude gets to kick a stationary ball and tries to get it over the bar. This is worth about 2 points. I don't know why a team would be awarded this opportunity.

It's worth three points. Teams generally do this when it is 4th down (they have used up 3 of their attempts to get 10 yards), the risk/reward of trying to advance the ball on 4th down is too great, and punting (again, that's kicking the ball to the other team) will not hurt the other team much.

I do not know what is considered a legal/illegal tackle, how many substitutions can be made, or anything else.

You can't grab a player's facemask. You can't tackle helmet-to-helmet. You can't do much of anything to quarterbacks these days.

I do not know who is in the final. I would appreciate if you could give me this information. Also, tell me who I should support and why. Typically I will go with the underdog, but I am open to persuasion.

Philly against whoever wins New England versus Pittsburgh (being played right now). You should root for Philly because I am. Oh, they will also be the underdog. New England is top dog right now.

-- Homer

[daryn]

well, there are two conferences, AFC and NFC.

the NFC just had their championship game and the philadelphia eagles won and will be at the super bowl

right now the new england patriots are playing @ the pittsburgh steelers to determine who will be the AFC team in the superbowl.

[partygirluk]

So can you just choose to take a Fieldgoal at any time? And the other team have to retreat a certain distance whilst you do this?

And what are the punishments for getting fouled? Do you get to kick a Fieldgoal? Is there a sinbin?

And when you mention 11 on offence, 11 on defence, does the entire team change when possession switches? Are there no players that can do a job in both offence and defence?

Also, can you only score if you started the play in possession. Say Team A's quarterback tries to throw the ball to one of his fast guys, but one of Team B's fast guys intercepts the ball, can he run down the other end and score? And what happens if he is tackled?

[partygirluk]

AFC and NFC stand for?

Is this done North/South divide?

[daryn]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In risposta di:</font><hr />
So can you just choose to take a Fieldgoal at any time? And the other team have to retreat a certain distance whilst you do this?


[/ QUOTE ]


yeah you can attempt to kick a field goal at any time. the ball has to start where it was, on the line of scrimmage. basically the kicker on the kicking team steps a good distance back from the ball, along with the holder. then the center snaps the ball from the line of scrimmage way back to the holder, who holds while the kicker kicks. the other team can try to get at the kicker to block.



</font><blockquote><font class="small">In risposta di:</font><hr />
And what are the punishments for getting fouled? Do you get to kick a Fieldgoal? Is there a sinbin?


[/ QUOTE ]


the referees dole out yardage penalties. 10 yds, 15 yds, etc.


</font><blockquote><font class="small">In risposta di:</font><hr />
And when you mention 11 on offence, 11 on defence, does the entire team change when possession switches? Are there no players that can do a job in both offence and defence?


[/ QUOTE ]

mostly yeah, the offense leaves the field and the defense comes out, but some players play both sides of the ball.


</font><blockquote><font class="small">In risposta di:</font><hr />
Also, can you only score if you started the play in possession. Say Team A's quarterback tries to throw the ball to one of his fast guys, but one of Team B's fast guys intercepts the ball, can he run down the other end and score? And what happens if he is tackled?

[/ QUOTE ]


you can score at any time. in the situtation you outlined, yes the guy who intercepts the ball can then run back to the other end, good for a touchdown.

[daryn]

american football conference

national football conference

not done geographically, but rather there used to be 2 leagues, the AFL and NFL, and they were united.

[Homer]

[ QUOTE ]
So can you just choose to take a Fieldgoal at any time? And the other team have to retreat a certain distance whilst you do this?

[/ QUOTE ]

You can kick a field goal at any time, but it nearly impossible to make one from more than 50-55 yards away. The other team can rush and attempt to block the kick after the ball is snapped. If the kick is missed, the other team gets the ball at the spot the ball was kicked from.

[ QUOTE ]
And what are the punishments for getting fouled? Do you get to kick a Fieldgoal? Is there a sinbin?

[/ QUOTE ]

There are different 'punishments' for different types of penalties. For example, say the offensive line (the guys who block the defenders who are rushing the quarterback) moves before the ball is snapped. That is called 'offsides' and is a 5 yard penalty. So, if it was 3rd down and 8 yards to go, the penalty would make it 3rd down and 13 yards to go.

[ QUOTE ]
And when you mention 11 on offence, 11 on defence, does the entire team change when possession switches? Are there no players that can do a job in both offence and defence?

[/ QUOTE ]

Some players stay in all the time (quarterback, offensive linemen), but many rotate in an out every few plays.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, can you only score if you started the play in possession. Say Team A's quarterback tries to throw the ball to one of his fast guys, but one of Team B's fast guys intercepts the ball, can he run down the other end and score? And what happens if he is tackled?

[/ QUOTE ]

He can run and score a touchdown (6 points), yes. If he is tackled, his team takes possession of the ball at the spot he is tackled.

[Broken Glass Can]

www.nfl.com (http://www.nfl.com)


NFL Rulebook (http://www.nfl.com/features/rulebook)

[Homer]

[ QUOTE ]
mostly yeah, the offense leaves the field and the defense comes out, but some players play both sides of the ball.

[/ QUOTE ]

This doesn't really paint a picture of the way it is. There are what, two guys who play both sides of the ball (and both on the Patriots, right -- Vrabel, Brown)?

[Homer]

[ QUOTE ]
www.nfl.com (http://www.nfl.com)

[/ QUOTE ]

I have no idea how this could be helpful to someone who has never seen a football game.

EDIT - Try this (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0764539361/qid=1106525440/sr=2-1/ref=pd_ka_b_2_1/103-5679479-3978235).

[partygirluk]

Why would the Quarterback play on the defensive side? Isn't he supposed to be some wiry guide with a strong arm, quick brain and accurate throw? Wouldn't a team prefer to have big strong quick ogres in defence?

[Homer]

[ QUOTE ]
Why would the Quarterback play on the defensive side? Isn't he supposed to be some wiry guide with a strong arm, quick brain and accurate throw? Wouldn't a team prefer to have big strong quick ogres in defence?

[/ QUOTE ]

There are only a handful of people who play both offense and defense (I can only think of 2). The quarterback never does anything else, he is too valuable.

[pudley4]

[ QUOTE ]
Why would the Quarterback play on the defensive side? Isn't he supposed to be some wiry guide with a strong arm, quick brain and accurate throw? Wouldn't a team prefer to have big strong quick ogres in defence?

[/ QUOTE ]

He meant that while a team has the ball, the quarterback stays in for every play. Most of the big guys who stay in the middle and block (the offensive line) also stay in every play when they have the ball. The smaller players who run and catch the ball will come in and out depending on which down it is and how far it is until they get a new 10 yards.

Once the ball switched to the other team, 99.99% of the players come off the field and are replaced.

[Broken Glass Can]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
www.nfl.com (http://www.nfl.com)

[/ QUOTE ]

I have no idea how this could be helpful to someone who has never seen a football game.


[/ QUOTE ]

The answer to all his questions are answered there.

Based on his questions I would start with the Digest of Rules (http://www.nfl.com/fans/rules) and also review NFL Teams. (http://www.nfl.com/teams)


But its more fun to answer questions in a thread. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Homer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
www.nfl.com (http://www.nfl.com)

[/ QUOTE ]

I have no idea how this could be helpful to someone who has never seen a football game.


[/ QUOTE ]

The answer to all his questions are answered there.

Based on his questions I would start with the Digest of Rules (http://www.nfl.com/fans/rules) and also review NFL Teams.


But its more fun to answer questions in a thread. /images/graemlins/wink.gif (http://www.nfl.com/teams)

[/ QUOTE ]

Oops, you're right, I didn't see that link there. Yeah, that just might be helpful. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I say learn it like the rest of us did, though. Just start watching some games.

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
There are different 'punishments' for different types of penalties. For example, say the offensive line (the guys who block the defenders who are rushing the quarterback) moves before the ball is snapped. That is called 'offsides' and is a 5 yard penalty. So, if it was 3rd down and 8 yards to go, the penalty would make it 3rd down and 13 yards to go.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is actually a False Start.

Offsides is when the defense is across the line of scrimmage when the ball is snapped.

[Paluka]

I found this post to be very high on the unintentional comedy scale.

[jstnrgrs]

A few rules that I think are important but have not been discussed.

Incomplete passes

If a forward pass hits the ground before anyone catches it, or if a player catches it with one or more feet (or any other body part) touching the ground out of bounds, it is said to be incomplete. In the event of an incomplete pass, the play is over and the ball is moved back to the previous spot. So if it is 1st down with 10 yards to go (1st and 10), and an incomplete pass is thrown, it is now 2nd and 10. If an incomplete pass is thrown on 4th down, then the other team takes possession of the ball at the previous spot.

2 point conversions
After a touchdown, a team can kick an extra point for 1 point (as has been discussed elsewhere in this thread) or they can attempt to score a two point conversion (worth 2 points). A two point conversion is scored the same way as a touchdown, but the team only has one chance at it. 2 point conversions (like extra points) are attempted from the 2 yard line.

[partygirluk]

Shouldn't you almost always take the field goal if you are within 15-30 or so metres of the goal? It would seem that you should have a greater than 2 times chance of kicking the goal as touching down from this distance.

Unless you were 5 points behind with 30 seconds to go, in which case you go for the touch down.

[daryn]

well that's the thing.. you get your 4 chances to move the ball 10 yards right? so why not use the first 3 chances and try to move the ball and get a first down, or touchdown, and if you fail, you kick the field goal on 4th down.

that's what they do, in fact.


by the way, congratulations. with your insight you are qualified to be coach of the pittsburgh steelers.

[PoBoy321]

I'm definitely forwarding this thread to my girlfriend so that I don't have to explain all of this myself.

[daveymck]

Watch it on SKY, press the red button and choose the sky commentary for beginners which will mean you can watch and they will explain everything in basic terms. For the Superbowl before hand they usually have some basic rule explanaion segments as well.

[partygirluk]

I don't have Sky.

[partygirluk]

A B C D E F G H I J K ----------------- Defence

L M N O P Q R S T U V ----------------- Offence

Could someone explain to me what all these players do? I am guessing that player Q is the Quarterback. N,O,P,R,S and T are his bodyguards. C,D,E,F,G,H and I are his assassins. L,M,U and V are quick guys who aim to catch the ball and score a touchdown. A,B,J and K are quick guys who aim to intercept the ball or beat up the opposition quick guys.

How did I do?

[Drunk Bob]

OK.

On offense(the guys trying to put the oblate spheroid over the line)There are 11.

1.The Center This is the most important player since he starts the action.

I'll let others explain the roles of the 21 nominal others.

[daveymck]

How will you be watching it then? Is it on Channel 5

[MelK]

Most of the people on the Offense are doing defensive tasks (protecting people), only a few are involved in moving the ball forward.

All of the people on defense are doing offensive things (attacking people).

The big Defense players guys on line try to get to the quarterback. They want to put pressure on him, so he doesn't have time to get off a pass (the more time you have, the better pass you can throw). The big Offense players try to give their quarterback as much time as they can so he can pass, or create a hole for the running back during a running play. Most of the activily of most players happens right there at the line going after/defending the quarterback.

The receivers usually line up on the far sides and run down the field to be open for a pass. A few Defense players are dutied with making the receivers job of catching the ball difficult (but they can't interfere too much or they get penalized).

While there are a lot of players with various position names, they fall into these basic categories:

Offense:

Quarterback - get ball to receiver/running back

Running back - run the ball forward

Receiver - to get open, catch the ball and run with it

Linesman - defend the quarterback and assist the ball carrier

Defense:

Linesman - get to/pressure the quarterback/ball carrier

Receiver Coverage - obstruct receiver (and tackle receiver after he catches the ball)

(Most players on both sides are Linesmen)

[youtalkfunny]

Thanks for the link to the rulebook.

Every year at about this time, someone will post the brilliant strategy of betting against a "team to receive the opening kickoff" in the SB, thinking that they will defer and put their great defense on the field (Pats v Rams, Ravens v Giants, Buccs v Raiders, etc).
Every year, I respond that teams who defer in the first half DON'T GET THE BALL IN THE SECOND HALF.

And no one believes me.

But THIS year, I have a LINK!

It was especially maddening in the Pats/Rams SB, when every Patriot who got near a microphone would say over and over that their primary task was to keep the vaunted Rams offense on the bench. But the squares bet heavily that NE would not receive the opening kick--and for about the 12th straight year, they were right, but not because anyone ever deferred; only because they had an insane lucky streak with this prop. Tampa Bay finally broke the streak, by winning the toss, and (surprise!) electing to receive.

And yes, I'm a bitter former-bookmaker who specialized in prop bets.

[partygirluk]

YE it is on 5.

[partygirluk]

So the Qback throws the ball to a wide receiver right? And is this guy then allowed to throw it to someone else? Does he have to throw it forward?

What is the rules on kicking the ball. In rugby there are various kicks

i) The clearance kick. If you are under pressure you thump the ball upfield to gain positional advantage.

ii) The UpnUnder aka The GaryOwen. You kick the ball very high in the air and not that far forward. This gives you team time to rush forward and attempt to catch the ball on its descent. This is tricky for the defensive kick.

iii) The grubber kick. This is basically a football kick. It might be used in a one on one situation. You kick the ball along the ground and chase after it. This disorientates the defense, and they are not allowed to tackle a player who is not in possession of the ball/

iv) The through ball. This is similar to the grubba kick.


----x----------------- Goal line

A B C Defence

Q Ro S Offence

R is in possesion of the ball. B comes to tackle him. R kicks the ball along the ground to point x. Meanwhile Q runs towards the opponents Goal line to try and touch the ball. A tries to stop him. Q has the advantage of momentum.

Which, if any of these kicks are legal? And which are commonly used?

[tolbiny]

"So the Qback throws the ball to a wide receiver right? And is this guy then allowed to throw it to someone else? Does he have to throw it forward?"

When the two teams line up before a play the ball is place on "the line of scrimmage". Once a player passes this line with the ball in his hands- it can no longer be passed forward. Also the ball may be passed forward ONLY once on each play. The ball can be passed backwards (a lateral) as many times as the team likes. If the ball hits the ground on a forward pass- the play is dead, and the passing team retains possession. If the ball hits the ground on a backwards pass it is live, and who ever picks up the ball gains possession.

"i) The clearance kick. If you are under pressure you thump the ball upfield to gain positional advantage."

Similar to a punt- but once a team punts the ball they have given possesion to the defensive team.

"ii) The UpnUnder aka The GaryOwen. You kick the ball very high in the air and not that far forward. This gives you team time to rush forward and attempt to catch the ball on its descent. This is tricky for the defensive kick."

This is not allowed on a punt- the defense has to touch the ball on a punt before the offense can recover it.

iii and iv are not used at all- american football (ironically) is a game of keeping your hands on the ball as much as possible.

[daryn]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In risposta di:</font><hr />
Every year, I respond that teams who defer in the first half DON'T GET THE BALL IN THE SECOND HALF.

And no one believes me.


[/ QUOTE ]


huh?

[tolbiny]

"you can score at any time"

except on a blocked extra point.

[jstnrgrs]

It a team wins the toss and deferes, then they have the choice to start the second half. They could choose sides, and let the other team have the ball, but they never do.

[Patrick del Poker Grande]

[ QUOTE ]
Why would the Quarterback play on the defensive side? Isn't he supposed to be some wiry guide with a strong arm, quick brain and accurate throw? Wouldn't a team prefer to have big strong quick ogres in defence?

[/ QUOTE ]
Duante Culpepper (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=4659) is 6'4" (1.93m) and weighs 264 pounds (119kg). He's also a very fast runner. He'd surely be good at a few positions, but is among the best QBs in the league, which is where the money's at.

[bukkrukk]

Yeah I´m also an european trying learn american football. Been watching every game during the playoffs. Need some clarifications.

1. What does the tightends (sp?) do? And what about the safety-guy?

2. How often does a succesfull fieldgoal block occur? and if that happends, so what? Must have been a worthless kick that never could have resulted in points.

3. When the QB is about to get sacked why can´t he just throw the ball down in the ground for an incomplete pass?



thanks

[bukkrukk]

One more thing,

When one team is behind a few points and the time is running out they sometimes choses to kick-off in some short variant on the side of the pitch. Guess the plan is to win the ball back in some way. How long must the kicker kick the ball?
Is the kicking team trying to get the ball before the other team or are they hoping to tackle the returner harder than ever before resulting in a fumble?

[partygirluk]

Yeah, and what happens when the ball gets kicked/taken over the sideline? And what about if it gets kicked over the endline?

[Patrick del Poker Grande]

[ QUOTE ]
1. What does the tightends (sp?) do? And what about the safety-guy?

[/ QUOTE ]
The tight end is kind of a mix of offensive lineman and wide receiver. He's basically a huge receiver who sometimes blocks and sometimes goes out for a pass.

[ QUOTE ]
2. How often does a succesfull fieldgoal block occur? and if that happends, so what? Must have been a worthless kick that never could have resulted in points.

[/ QUOTE ]
Fieldgoals are quite rarely blocked. If the ball is partially blocked such that it still goes forward past the line of scrimmage, then it's just a missed fieldgoal. If it's blocked before it gets to the line of scrimmage and such that it never crosses the line of scrimmage, it's basically a fumble and anyone can pick it up and run with it.

[ QUOTE ]
3. When the QB is about to get sacked why can´t he just throw the ball down in the ground for an incomplete pass?

[/ QUOTE ]
This is called intentional grounding. This rule was made for this very purpose - otherwise you'd never get a sack. The penalty is 10 yards and loss of down - it's pretty harsh. There is a bit of a loophole, though, and that is if the quarterback is able to run far enough to either side of the field (outside of where the offensive tackles line up), then he can throw it away with no penalty as long as the ball makes it at least to the line of scrimmage.

[Patrick del Poker Grande]

[ QUOTE ]
One more thing,

When one team is behind a few points and the time is running out they sometimes choses to kick-off in some short variant on the side of the pitch. Guess the plan is to win the ball back in some way. How long must the kicker kick the ball?
Is the kicking team trying to get the ball before the other team or are they hoping to tackle the returner harder than ever before resulting in a fumble?

[/ QUOTE ]
This is called an onside kick. The rule is that on a kickoff, once the ball goes 10 yards, anyone from any team can pick it up and run with it. The kicking team is trying to kick it so that it bounces up very high and/or bounce funny so it's hard to catch and gives their guys a chance to run and get it after 10 yards before the other team does. This rule also applies to regular long kickoffs, so if the receiving team were to just be idiots and let the ball roll, the kicking team could theoretically come by and pick it up. The receiving team never just lets it go though, so that's why you'd never see this on a regular kickoff.

Don't confuse this with punts, though, as on a punt, the ball is dead if the kicking team is the first to touch it. That's why you often see the receiving team actually avoiding the ball. If the guy thinks he won't be able to return it, or if it's bouncing funny, or if he thinks it'll bounce into the end zone, he'll let it go instead of risking touching it and dropping it, at which point it's a fumble and the kicking team could grab it and run.

[Patrick del Poker Grande]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, and what happens when the ball gets kicked/taken over the sideline? And what about if it gets kicked over the endline?

[/ QUOTE ]
If the ball goes into the endzone and isn't carried out by the receiving team, it's a touchback and the receiving team gets the ball at their 20 yard line.

For going out of bounds, it depends on if it's a kickoff or a punt. If it's a punt, then the receiving team gets the ball where the punt went out of bounds. If it's a kickoff that goes out of bounds, the kicking team gets one more chance to re-kick it and there might be a 5-yard penalty, but I don't remember for sure - it doesn't make much difference to the play anyway. If it goes out of bounds the second time too, then the receiving team automatically gets the ball at a great field position - something like the 40 or 45 yard line, but I don't recall exactly which place it is.

[adios]

[ QUOTE ]
1. What does the tightends (sp?) do? And what about the safety-guy?

[/ QUOTE ]

A tight end is a player who is eligible to catch passes and usually is bigger than a wide receiver. A tight end is counted on to block on running plays (occasionally pass protect) and catch passes. The tight typically blocks defensive lineman and linebackers but he'll defensive backs and safeties as well.

A safety is in what's called the defensive backfield. There are two safeties a free safety and a strong safety. They fulfill muli roles on defense but a lot of times strong safeties will cover tight ends in pass plays and free safeties sometime help in providing "double" coverage in that the free safety and cornerback will cover one wide receiver on a passing play. Safeties are typically counted on to provide a lot of help in stopping the run and even "blitz" ie rush the quarterback on passing plays. The roles of safeties are more varied typically than cornerbacks who's main objective is to cover receivers in passing plays. But cornerbacsk are expected to help in running defenses as well.

[ QUOTE ]
2. How often does a succesfull fieldgoal block occur? and if that happends, so what? Must have been a worthless kick that never could have resulted in points.


[/ QUOTE ]

Not that often and the team that blocks the field goal can advance the ball afterwards. Basically it's very valuable when a team the kicking team has a high probability of making the field goal.

[ QUOTE ]
3. When the QB is about to get sacked why can´t he just throw the ball down in the ground for an incomplete pass?

[/ QUOTE ]

It is a penalty resulting in a loss of down and the ball is spotted where he threw the ball from. Thus there is no advantage in doing so as the results are the same as a sack. However, there is a rule that if the quarterback is outside the hashmarks (the vertical lines between the sidelines and the center of the field) he can throw the ball out of bounds, past the line of scrimmage even if there is no receiver and it's no penalty.

[Patrick del Poker Grande]

[ QUOTE ]
And what about the safety-guy?

[/ QUOTE ]
I forgot to answer the question about the safeties in my other reply. On defense, you have your linemen (the huge guys up front), the linebackers (the next biggest guys behind the line), and the defensive backs - these are the cornerbacks and the safeties. The cornerbacks are the smallest and fastest guys on the field and they're the ones covering the wide receivers. The safeties are the next smallest guys - they're bigger than the cornerbacks, but smaller than the linemen and are likewise generally a little slower than the cornerbacks but faster than linebackers. They do a lot of things. Their main job is just what their name implies - a kindof safety net to help the cornerbacks in coverage. Depending on the team and the players, though, they also run up and do a lot against the run and are a good match against a lot of running backs. Again, depending on the team, they may blitz the quarterback a lot too.

[bukkrukk]

Thanks guys. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[jstnrgrs]

[ QUOTE ]
If it's a kickoff that goes out of bounds, the kicking team gets one more chance to re-kick it and there might be a 5-yard penalty, but I don't remember for sure - it doesn't make much difference to the play anyway. If it goes out of bounds the second time too, then the receiving team automatically gets the ball at a great field position - something like the 40 or 45 yard line, but I don't recall exactly which place it is.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is incorrect. If a kickoff foes out of bounds (over the sideline and not in the endzone), then the receving team gets the ball at the 40 yard line. (there is no second chance).

One thing about football is there are so many rules that hardley anyone knows them very well. I hear the TV anouncers make mistakes about the rules all the time.

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
"you can score at any time"

except on a blocked extra point.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is it dead in the NFL? It is definately a live ball in college football.

[jstnrgrs]

Yes, in the NFL, if the defence gains possession of the ball on an extra point attempt, then the play is over, and no points are awarded.

[youtalkfunny]

[ QUOTE ]
One thing about football is there are so many rules that hardley anyone knows them very well. I hear the TV anouncers make mistakes about the rules all the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a league that has changed about 10 rules each of the last 10 years. NO ONE, I mean NO ONE, knows the rules of the NFL.

Remember when we were introduced to "The Tuck Rule"? I know people who've been watching this sport for 30 years, and none of us had ever heard of it.

As for the out-of-bounds kick-off, for some reason, the rule is different for onsides kicks. Back 'em up 5, and let 'em try again.

I THINK! I don't know anything for sure.

Wait, there is one that I *do* know for sure:

[ QUOTE ]
It a team wins the toss and deferes, then they have the choice to start the second half.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is absolutely, 100% WRONG in the NFL. Click on the Rulebook link above and see for yourself, if you don't believe me. In the NFL, the team that LOSES the opening toss gets to choose first in the second half. They are not obligated to kick in the second half, just because the coin-toss winner elected to kick, or chose an endzone to defend.

[Patrick del Poker Grande]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If it's a kickoff that goes out of bounds, the kicking team gets one more chance to re-kick it and there might be a 5-yard penalty, but I don't remember for sure - it doesn't make much difference to the play anyway. If it goes out of bounds the second time too, then the receiving team automatically gets the ball at a great field position - something like the 40 or 45 yard line, but I don't recall exactly which place it is.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is incorrect. If a kickoff foes out of bounds (over the sideline and not in the endzone), then the receving team gets the ball at the 40 yard line. (there is no second chance).

One thing about football is there are so many rules that hardley anyone knows them very well. I hear the TV anouncers make mistakes about the rules all the time.

[/ QUOTE ]
You sir are actually the one who is incorrect. This is quoted straight out of the NFL rules digest on nfl.com (http://www.nfl.com/news/rulesdigest.html):
[ QUOTE ]
5. When a kickoff goes out of bounds between the goal lines without being touched by the receiving team, the ball belongs to the receivers 30 yards from the spot of the kick or at the out-of-bounds spot unless the ball went out-of-bounds the first time an onside kick was attempted. In this case the kicking team is to be penalized five yards and the ball must be kicked again.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Cyrus]

Think chess.

[CORed]

[ QUOTE ]
I might even get to see a breast at half time.

[/ QUOTE ]
Don't count on it. Our ever-vigilant government knows that the sight of a breast may irreversibly corrupt the morals of our young people and has taken stern measures to see that such a dangerous event never occurs again.

[ QUOTE ]
Each team has about 13 players on it.

[/ QUOTE ]
11

[ QUOTE ]
They play 4 quarters of about 15-20 minutes or so.

[/ QUOTE ]
15 minutes. However, the clock is frequently stopped between plays (the rules for when this happens are pretty complex, so I won't go into detail), so the game usually takes 3 - 3.5 hours of real time. In a televized game, especially the superbowl, there are also frequent breaks in the play for ads. The superbowl typically has a very long halftime show, so it will probably last more than 4 hours. If the game is tied at the end of the regular 4 quarters, it will go into overtime. The first team to score wins.

[ QUOTE ]
They face off in big lines, with one team in possession of the ball. That team typically passes the ball back to some guy called the Quarterback who tries to throw it to some fast guy. Or sometimes I think they don't pass it back to the Qback but give it to some muscly guy who tries to do some bulldozing.



[/ QUOTE ]
The play starts with the ball in the hands of the "center". He is required to start a play by handing or tossing the ball backwards to another player. This is nearly always the quarterback. The quarterback usually stands immediately behind the center, but on passing plays will sometimes stand 5 or 6 yards back, in what is called a "shotgun" formation. The quarter back usually either hands the ball to a "running back" ("muscly guy who trys to do some bulldozing") or thows the ball downfield "to some fast guy".

[ QUOTE ]
Anyway, the team in possession has 4 attempts to gain 10 metres. If they do this, they get 4 more attempts. If they don't, possession changes.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is correct except that it is 10 yards, not 10 metres. A yard is little less than a meter (American spelling). It is part of an archaic system of measurement of English origin which the UK has abandoned in favor of the metric system, but the US stubornly hangs onto. The common distance measurements are the inch, which is 2.54 centimeters, the foot which is 12 inches, the yard, which is 3 feet, and the mile which is 5280 feet (about 1.6 kilometers). These 4 attempts are called "downs", so you will frequently here the announcers referring to "2nd down" "third down", etc. If the offense (team with the ball) gains the required 10 yards, they get another "1st down".

[ QUOTE ]
If some guy manages to pass his opponents' end line and throw the ball to the floor, this is called a Touchdown, which is good and worth about 5 points. I think that team then has the option to kick the ball in between the posts and above the bar for 2 more points, but I might be confused with rugby.

[/ QUOTE ]
The touchdown is actually awarded for getting past the goal line. throwing the ball down is not required, but usually done. A touchdown is also awarded if a pass is caught in the "endzone" which is the area between the goal line and the end line, which is 10 yards past the goal line. A touchdown is worth 6 points, not 5. After scoring a touchdown, the scoring team gets an opportunity to score additional points. They get the ball on the 2 yard line. They have the option of either kicking the ball through the goal post for one point, or running or throwing the ball into the end zone for two points. Kicking the ball for one point is almost always succesful, whereas the two point play succeeds less than half the time, so the one point kick "extra point" is the option that is nearly alway selected, unless the team is behind late in the game and really needs the two points to have a realistic chance of winning.

[ QUOTE ]
Teams can hit something called a Fieldgoal. Some dude gets to kick a stationary ball and tries to get it over the bar. This is worth about 2 points. I don't know why a team would be awarded this opportunity.

[/ QUOTE ]
A field goal is worth three points. The team with the ball may attempt a field goal at any time it wants to. In practice, field goals are usually attempted on 4th down, or with time nearly expired in the half or the game, when the offensive team is close enough to allow a reasonable probability of success. On a field goal attempt, the center snaps the ball back the "holder", who is kneeling on the ground, usually about 7 yards behind the line of scrimmage(this is about the optimum distance to avoid getting the kick blocked). He has to catch the ball and place it on the ground, standing on end, so the kicker can kick it through the goal post. While he is doing this, the defensive team is trying to break through and get into position to block the kick, so he, and the kicker, have to be quick. If the ball is kicked over the crossbar and between the uprights, a field goal is awarded. If the kick misses, the defensive team gets the ball at the line of scrimage.

[ QUOTE ]
I do not know what is considered a legal/illegal tackle, how many substitutions can be made, or anything else.

[/ QUOTE ]
The guy with the ball is pretty much fair game, but hard helmet-to-helmet hits may incur a penalt, as will hitting a player who is already down or out of bounds. Substitutions are unlimited. In practice this means that there are completely different teams for offense and defense, as well as for field goal attempts, punts kickofs, defending field goal attemats, returning punts, and returning punts and returning kickoffs. Also, substitutions are often made on both offense and defense depending on down and yardage.

Some other information.

Kickoffs: The game and the 2nd half are started with kickoffs (who kicks off is determined by a coin toss) The scoring team also kicks off after a touchdown or field goal. For a kickoff, the ball is placed on a tee, and a player kicks the ball. Once the ball travels 10 yards, it is a free ball, but usually a member of the non-kicking team will catch the ball and try to run with it. Late in the game, the team that is behind will sometimes try to make a very short kick and recover the ball. this is called an "on-sides kick". It usually doesn't work and is pretty much a desparation move when there is not time enough to win any other way.

Punts: The team with the ball may punt at any time. In practice, this is done on 4th down when the offensive team is not in field goal range. The ball is snapped to a player about 15 yards back, who drops the ball onto his foot and kicks it, once the ball leaves the punters foot, it belongs to the defensive team. However, if a member of the defensive team touches the ball, and the ball is beyond the yardage needed for a 1st down, it is a free ball. Usually a member of the defensive team cathes the ball and runs with it. Teams will usually punt on 4th down if they aren't in field goal range to avoid the risk of giving up the ball where the opposing team has an easy scoring opportunity. A punt trades the ball for yardage.

Passes: There are two types of passes. Forward passes, and lateral or backward passes (usually just called "laterals"). If the ball is thrown so that it advances, it is a forward pass. Forward passes can only be thrown form behind the line of scrimmage, and only certain players are eligible to catch a forward pass. If a forward pass hits the ground without being caught, or is caught out of bounds it is "incomplete" and the offensive team loses a down and retains possession at the original line of scrimmage. If an offensive player catches the ball, he may run with it. If a defensive player catches the ball, it is an "interception" and he may run with it. The player must catch the ball with both feet in bounds for it to be a complete (or intercepted) pass.

Lateral or backward passes may be thrown at any time and caught by any player. However, if they hit the ground, the ball is still in play and may be recovered by either team.

Penalties: Penalties are assessed for various rule violations. Usually, the ball is moved 5, 10 or 15 yards, and the down is repeated. On a penalty against the defense, the penalty yardage may be sufficient to give the offense a 1st down, and some penalties against the defense include an automatic 1st down. Some penalties against the offense ivolve a loss of down as well as yardage.

Safety: There is yet another way to score in American football. If an offensive player is tackled in his own end zone (behind the offensive team's own goal line), or the ball goes out of bounds in the end zone, a "safety" is awarded This is worth two points. It is fairly rare. Another wrinkle is that, after a safety, the team that was scored upon has to kick the ball to the team that scored, from their own 20. This is a "free kick". It works like a kickoff, except that the kicking team has the option of either place kicking (kicking from a tee) or punting.

Fiel layout: The playing field is 100 yards long + 10 yards for each endzone, for a total of 120 yards. Yard lines are numbered on each end from the goal line to the 50 yard line in the middle of the field, so there are 2 10, 20, 30 and 40 yard lines but only one 50 yard line. Single yards are marked at the sideline, and at two spots "hash marks" near the middle of the field. The goal posts are on the end lines, 10 yards behind the goal lines. Therefore, a filed goal attempt is uaually the yard line of the line of scrimmage + 17: 10 yards added for the distance behind the goal line + 7 yards behind the line is usually wher the ball is kicked from. I don't remember off-hand how wide the field is.

The teams playing are the New England Patriots and the Philadelphia Eagles. The Patriots are the defending champions and favorites (but the "experts" have been wrong before. That's why they play the game).

American Football is a very complex game, and this is far from complete, but it should be enough to give you some idea of what is going on.

[jstnrgrs]

Well, The link above (which is not a like to the official rules) doesn't mention anything about defering. Perhapse defering is not alowed in the NFL, but I think it is. One thing to understand is that defering is NOT the same thing as choosing sides or choosing to kick. I used to play high school football, and here is how it works there.

winner of the coin toss chooses to receive or kick or chooses sides or deferes. If the winner does not defer then the looser makes the choice in the second half. If the winner defers then the looser chooses to kick or receive or chooses sides, and the winner chooses in the second half.

I remember a few years ago when I herd a reporter saying that the Lions (I think it was the Lions I'm not sure) had defered the coin toss in overtime. I thought that seemed odd. It turns out that they haden't defered. They had elected to choose sides. It is not the same thing.

[CORed]

As I understand it, the team that wins the toss has the option of choosing whether to kick or receive, or of choosing the end of the field that they will defend. The team that lost the toss gets to make the other choice. In the second half, the team that lost the toss gets the same options the team that won the toss had for the first half.

The team that wins the toss nearly always chooses to recieve the kickoff, but if they choose to kick, or choose an end and the other team chooses to receive, the team that lost the toss stil has the 1st choice of these options in the second half, so choosing to receive, or choosing an end in the first half does not automatically grant them the right to receive in the second half

[jstnrgrs]

Based on your description, defering is not allowed. Maybe this is the case in the NFL. I know it was allowed when I played in High school.

One other thing for anyone reading this. Do not try to figure out this rule based on one of the Madden games. They have the rule completely wrong. I'm sure everyone else who has commented on the rule would agree with that.

[CORed]

If there a strong wind blowing, it would make sense to choose to go with the wind in overtime. At the start of the game or 2nd half, there isn't a huge advantage to choosing ends, because you will switch at the end of the 1st or 3rd quarter, but in a regular season overtime, you will not switch, and in a playoff or superbowl overtime, you will not switch unless the overtime lasts 15 minutes.

[CORed]

You may be right. I had never heard of the right to defer, but I've never played organized football.

[jstnrgrs]

[ QUOTE ]
If there a strong wind blowing, it would make sense to choose to go with the wind in overtime. At the start of the game or 2nd half, there isn't a huge advantage to choosing ends, because you will switch at the end of the 1st or 3rd quarter, but in a regular season overtime, you will not switch, and in a playoff or superbowl overtime, you will not switch unless the overtime lasts 15 minutes.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, but in this discussion it is important to note that choosing to go with the wind is not defering.

[CORed]

I understand. Deferring at the start of the game might be advantageous, because you get the choice in the 2nd half. Deferring in overtime would be absolutely stupid, and any head coach who does so should be fired.

[CORed]

[ QUOTE ]
Think chess.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are similarities, but in chess, you don't get to knock the [censored] out of anyone.

[daryn]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In risposta di:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In risposta di:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In risposta di:</font><hr />
If it's a kickoff that goes out of bounds, the kicking team gets one more chance to re-kick it and there might be a 5-yard penalty, but I don't remember for sure - it doesn't make much difference to the play anyway. If it goes out of bounds the second time too, then the receiving team automatically gets the ball at a great field position - something like the 40 or 45 yard line, but I don't recall exactly which place it is.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is incorrect. If a kickoff foes out of bounds (over the sideline and not in the endzone), then the receving team gets the ball at the 40 yard line. (there is no second chance).

One thing about football is there are so many rules that hardley anyone knows them very well. I hear the TV anouncers make mistakes about the rules all the time.

[/ QUOTE ]
You sir are actually the one who is incorrect. This is quoted straight out of the NFL rules digest on nfl.com (http://www.nfl.com/news/rulesdigest.html):
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In risposta di:</font><hr />
5. When a kickoff goes out of bounds between the goal lines without being touched by the receiving team, the ball belongs to the receivers 30 yards from the spot of the kick or at the out-of-bounds spot unless the ball went out-of-bounds the first time an onside kick was attempted. In this case the kicking team is to be penalized five yards and the ball must be kicked again.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]


i would call you wrong, from your quote patrick. you didn't mention anything about it being an onside kick.

[Patrick del Poker Grande]

[ QUOTE ]
I understand. Deferring at the start of the game might be advantageous, because you get the choice in the 2nd half. Deferring in overtime would be absolutely stupid, and any head coach who does so should be fired.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, there are theoretical exceptions to this rule. If you think that your defense is awesome but your offense can't drive very far, you may want to kick and try for a big stop and then you'll have better field position, as opposed to potentially giving up good field position when you receive and go 3-and-out. In reality, though, I agree with you. Take the ball every time in the NFL.

[Patrick del Poker Grande]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If it's a kickoff that goes out of bounds, the kicking team gets one more chance to re-kick it and there might be a 5-yard penalty, but I don't remember for sure - it doesn't make much difference to the play anyway. If it goes out of bounds the second time too, then the receiving team automatically gets the ball at a great field position - something like the 40 or 45 yard line, but I don't recall exactly which place it is.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is incorrect. If a kickoff foes out of bounds (over the sideline and not in the endzone), then the receving team gets the ball at the 40 yard line. (there is no second chance).

One thing about football is there are so many rules that hardley anyone knows them very well. I hear the TV anouncers make mistakes about the rules all the time.

[/ QUOTE ]
You sir are actually the one who is incorrect. This is quoted straight out of the NFL rules digest on nfl.com (http://www.nfl.com/news/rulesdigest.html):
[ QUOTE ]
5. When a kickoff goes out of bounds between the goal lines without being touched by the receiving team, the ball belongs to the receivers 30 yards from the spot of the kick or at the out-of-bounds spot unless the ball went out-of-bounds the first time an onside kick was attempted. In this case the kicking team is to be penalized five yards and the ball must be kicked again.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]


i would call you wrong, from your quote patrick. you didn't mention anything about it being an onside kick.

[/ QUOTE ]
Onside kicks are what we were talking about. It wasn't explicitly stated, but it was clearly the context.

[daryn]

i believe the original question was:


</font><blockquote><font class="small">In risposta di:</font><hr />
Yeah, and what happens when the ball gets kicked/taken over the sideline? And what about if it gets kicked over the endline?



[/ QUOTE ]


and to show that he wasn't talking about an onside kick, why would he ask what happens if the ball is kicked over the endline?

considering the guy knows little about american football, i believe your answer was misleading.

[Patrick del Poker Grande]

[ QUOTE ]
i believe the original question was:


[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, and what happens when the ball gets kicked/taken over the sideline? And what about if it gets kicked over the endline?



[/ QUOTE ]


and to show that he wasn't talking about an onside kick, why would he ask what happens if the ball is kicked over the endline?

considering the guy knows little about american football, i believe your answer was misleading.

[/ QUOTE ]
Perhaps you'll care to not come into the conversation in the middle and know what you're talking about. The statement you quoted was in reply to:
[ QUOTE ]
One more thing,

When one team is behind a few points and the time is running out they sometimes choses to kick-off in some short variant on the side of the pitch. Guess the plan is to win the ball back in some way. How long must the kicker kick the ball?
Is the kicking team trying to get the ball before the other team or are they hoping to tackle the returner harder than ever before resulting in a fumble?

[/ QUOTE ]
which is clearly making the original question and conversation about onside kicks. Thanks for trying your hardest to be a nitty little dick, though.

[daryn]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In risposta di:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In risposta di:</font><hr />
i believe the original question was:


</font><blockquote><font class="small">In risposta di:</font><hr />
Yeah, and what happens when the ball gets kicked/taken over the sideline? And what about if it gets kicked over the endline?



[/ QUOTE ]


and to show that he wasn't talking about an onside kick, why would he ask what happens if the ball is kicked over the endline?

considering the guy knows little about american football, i believe your answer was misleading.

[/ QUOTE ]
Perhaps you'll care to not come into the conversation in the middle and know what you're talking about. The statement you quoted was in reply to:
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In risposta di:</font><hr />
One more thing,

When one team is behind a few points and the time is running out they sometimes choses to kick-off in some short variant on the side of the pitch. Guess the plan is to win the ball back in some way. How long must the kicker kick the ball?
Is the kicking team trying to get the ball before the other team or are they hoping to tackle the returner harder than ever before resulting in a fumble?

[/ QUOTE ]
which is clearly making the original question and conversation about onside kicks. Thanks for trying your hardest to be a nitty little dick, though.

[/ QUOTE ]

i noticed, the other guy was indeed talking about an onside kick, as he is also unclear about all of the rules.

i am right here though, and you clearly cannot admit you are wrong. i hope that doesn't happen at work! we don't need another space explosion /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

/images/graemlins/heart.gif-daryn

i also think it's funny how you accuse me of coming into a conversation i wasn't a part of, when i had the first response in the thread.

daryn wins again!

[Ed Miller]

Reminds me of my Indian friend in college trying to explain Cricket to me.

[daryn]

that was a wicked googly

[partygirluk]

I sometimes watch baseball. American sports have lots of breaks, and during these they like to show lots of stats. I am sure these stats contain lots of valuable information, but sadly I have no idea what they mean. So knowing that Barry Bond has a VPIP of 43 or Mark Mcguire has WSD of 38 means nadda to me.

Could someone please provide me with a guide to the likely stats I will see on T.V., and what would be exceptional/good/average/bad etc. figures for that particular stat.

If you could alphabetise it so that I can print it out, that would be great.

Cheers.

[Gamblor]

Sorry, not spidey sense, that's my sarcasm detector.

[droolie]

The line of scrimmage is a very important concept in American Football. The offense stands on one side and the defense stands on the other on every play. The ball is placed on this line to begin every play and the offense is the only team that is allowed to touch it.

The one rule that was not explained is that the offense must lateral ("hike") the ball backwards from the line of scrimmage on every play. This is why you never see the big guy just pick up the ball and run forward when they are close to the goal line. The man who usually receives the "hike" is the quarterback (though on rare occasion there are trick plays where the ball is hiked to another player usually a running back or receiver.) The quarterback usually stands "under center" where he puts his hands directly between the legs of the center (the "hiker) to receive the ball and then runs backwards and either hands the ball to a running back or throws. This insures the QB gets the ball cleanly and this action makes the defense have to guess whether the play will be a run or pass. When the play is an obvious throwing situation (usually when the offence needs many yards to reach a first down) the quarterback will stand a few yards behind the center in "shotgun" formation. This is done to allow the quarterback more time to assess the situation and because there is no reason to make the defense guess wether or not the play will be a run or pass.

One thing to pay attention to is down and distance. When watching a game always ask three questions before every play. "What down is it?", "how many yards do they need to get a first down" and "How far are they from the end zone?"

"Getting a first down" is common jargon that is imperative you understand. When an offense starts with the ball it has 4 tries ("downs") to move the ball 10 yards or more, (this is called 1st and 10, ie 1st down and 10 yards to go). No matter what down the 10 yard gain is accomlished on it then becomes 1st and 10 again from wherever the play ended. The offense then has 4 more down to move it another 10 yards from that spot. This cycle is repeated until the offense makes it to the end zone and scores a touchdown. On 4th down if teams are close to the endzone they will attempt a field goal and if successful get 3 points. If they are too far away they forego scoring for punting. Punting is turning the ball over to the other team but is a good tactical move in that it usually results in pushing the ball as far as possible away from your own end zone.


You always need to know what down it is and how far the team needs to go to get a 1st down. The number of yards needed to get a first down can change dramatically when there are penalities. Due to penalties against the offense you will often see that a play is starting off 2 and 20. This means it is second down and the offense needs 20 yards to get a first down. Some defensive penalties award an offense an automatic 1st down regarless of where the ball is placed. Once you understand the concept of down and distance the rest comes very easy.

3rd down is usually the most critical play in any offensive series. Teams almost always punt or kick field goals on 4th down so 3rd down is usually a teams last chance in keeping a "drive" going by getting the yardage they need to acheive a new set of downs. One of the most exciting plays in footbal is when a team "goes for it" on 4th down. This is when a team decides not to punt or kick a field goal but instead tries to get the first down (or touchdown) while risking giving the ball up to the other team in the process. If the defence stops a team from getting a first down or touchdown they get the ball wherever the offenssive player is tackled or in the event of an incomplete pass, at the line of scrimmage.

[Gamblor]

A yard is little less than a meter (American spelling).

1.1 yds = 1m.

The common distance measurements are the inch, which is 2.54 centimeters,

An inch is originally defined as the distance from the tip of the thumbnail to the first knuckle.

the foot which is 12 inches,

The length of your foot.

the yard, which is 3 feet,

One pace.

and the mile which is 5280 feet (about 1.6 kilometers).

How long you can walk without whining "are we there yet?"

[jstnrgrs]

Just to clarify:
"hike" = snap
"hiker" = snapper = center

Just wanted to make that clear for those of you who are new to the game.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
Reminds me of my Indian friend in college trying to explain Cricket to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

WTF? If you can't understand the basics of cricket enough to pretty much understand what's going on when watching a match without detailed explanation, you clearly don't deserve to be on any kind of smartest person lists. The same goes for football. The basics of both sports are very simple. In one, you hit the ball and score runs until your side gets out. In the other, you pass or run the ball down the field and try to score points until you are out of tries. Then you switch offense/defense and repeat. It is so incredibly simple to understand both of these sports enough to watch and understand what's going on in a game - at least to the degree req'd to follow the action and cheer when good things happen for the team you've decided to support. I never understand why people get so confused about these things. Much like Gamblor, I assumed the original poster was largely kidding around with his post.

[partygirluk]

I taught my mum how to play Hold 'Em. She could now watch an episode of WSOP, pick a guy to root for, understand what was at stake, see if Raymer's bet was a bluff or not, and comprehend which river cards would be good for which player.

However, she doesnt really understand poker. She doesn't know why Raymer is bluffing. She doesn't know why it was right for Sklansky to fold the best hand. She doesn't realise why you should bet 2500 into a 5000 pot rather than 250 or 25,000.

She might come to a forum like two plus two to seek this information.

[partygirluk]

Also, you fail to acknowledge the ingenious pun that Ed put in the "Subject" area of his post, which I guess helps explain why he made Sklansky's top 10, and you did not.

[CORed]

Well, there's the quarterback rating which is based on...

Hell, nobody understands that one.

[partygirluk]

Thought experiment:

You assemble 2 squads, A and B. Both squads consist of 30 players who are genetically engineered to represent an average NFL player. So the two teams are clones of each other, and thus have excatly 50 per cent chance of winning a match between the two.

Now Team A are offered the choice to choose any quarterback in the world. Their winning percentage is now how much?

Now instead of this, Team A are offered to choose any player in the world, provided he is not a quarterback. How much is their winning percentage now?

[daryn]

&gt; 50%

[jar]

The percentage for the quarterback is greater than any other. I think an even more interesting question is to rank the positions in this experiment. I'm not much of a football fan, so I couldn't really do it. Here's my attempt anyway.

Quarterback is first by a pretty good margin, I think. Then running back, tight end, and wide receiver are in a clump below that. Offensive and Defensive linemen are toward the bottom, because that's really more of a teamwork and group as a whole issue. One superstar lineman isn't gonna make or break a team. I don't think any one defensive player can make a huge impact, but I think I'd put linebackers ahead of defensive backs ahead of defensive linemen. I don't know enough about the game to rank the TE WR and RB, because the effect of a star players depends so much on the strengths and weaknesses and playing/coaching style of the rest of the offense. Place kicker is higher than you might think, because against two evenly matched teams like this, one crucial field goal attempt is going to decide a lot of games.

Another interesting thought experiment is instead of the avg NFL player, they get me at one position. I'm a 5'8" 150lb poker/computer nerd with rather little athletic skill. Then it's really hard to say where I'd do the least damage (assuming I have to play the normal amount for the position). My first thought is punter, but I haven't attempted to punt a football in 5-7 years. I guess the best option is probably 3rd or 4th running back. Then I go in for one play in the first game and get broken in half by a 350lb linebacker.

[partygirluk]

Would you care to put some numbers in your post? It would greatly please my inner geek.

[jar]

My inner geek won't let me, because I don't know the game well enough to even approximate. If no one will give you numbers, I'll make some up.

[IsaacW]

[ QUOTE ]
My inner geek won't let me, because I don't know the game well enough to even approximate. If no one will give you numbers, I'll make some up.

[/ QUOTE ]
That last part is your inner MANAGER talking...

[partygirluk]

Can you think of any other team sports where one position has such disproportional influence?

In baseball in the pitcher comfortably the most important member of a team?

[Patrick del Poker Grande]

[ QUOTE ]
Can you think of any other team sports where one player has such disproportional influence?

[/ QUOTE ]
basketball

[partygirluk]

Really? Whenever I have watched basketball it has struck me that all 5 positions assume relatively equal importance.

[jstnrgrs]

The relative importance of the quarterback is different for different teams. Since no one has bothered to make up any numbers, I will try. In the example you give (Two average teams that are clones except one has Peyton Manning), I think team A wins 65% of the time.

In the senerio in which one team can select any non quarterback, they would likely select either a running back, or a place kicker (I would take a running back). I think the winning percent in this case would be about 60%

These numbers are only guesses, an I am not aware of any actually studies on this subject.

As far as the comparison to other sports. I think that the pitcher in baseball, can have more of an impact on one game than a quarterback in football. The thing is that pitchers can't pitch every game and be effective, so over the course of a season I think a quarterback is more important.

In basketball, the positions are all or similar importance, but (at least in the NBA) one player can dominate games.

Suppose I had the following senerio:
I have a football team, a baseball team, and a basketball team whih all consist of average players. I can select one star player in one sport, and then I will play a game against an average team (of clones) in only that sport. I would choose a basketball player. My second choice would be a baseball pitcher. The football quarterback would actually be my third choice.

Now if I had the same situation, but our teams would play an entire season (again in only that one sport). My first choice would be a basketball player, but my second choice would be a football quarterback. The baseball pitcher drops to third.

[youtalkfunny]

A hot goalie can win a Cup for a mediocre team.

(At least, back in the days when a GAA of 2.00 was outstanding. Nowadays, it gets you shipped back to the minors.)

[partygirluk]

A basketball team consists of players, which naturally makes each player very important.

[jar]

Now everyone gets shipped back to the minors, or europe, or whatever. Has any progress been made?

[jstnrgrs]

[ QUOTE ]
A basketball team consists of players, which naturally makes each player very important.

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't this true of all team sports?

[jstnrgrs]

The passer rating (not quarterback rating) is based on 4 things
1) compleations per attempt
2) yards per attempt
3) touchdowns (passing) per attempt
4) interceptions per attempt

With a little internet research, I'm sure anyone who wants to can find the exact formula.

[tolbiny]

I disagree with pretty much this whole post- the percentage difference that a QB would make in such a situation when compared to all the other positions would most likely be quite small. And Middle linebacker is probably almost equal in importance.
As the primary decision maker for the offense the QB is the most important cog- but several super bowl have been won by teams with role players at QB (Trent Dilfer)- but was made up for with a strong defense and running game. On the other hand you take a pro bowl QB and put him behind aweak offensive line (even a good running QB- think Jeff Garcia this year) and he will struggle.
As far as the real world is concerned, with the salary cap and team chemistry- my first pick for an expansion team would be a strong middle linebacker, and my first priority on offense would be the offensive line. Take a look at the best offenses in the league and they all have than in common. Kansas City, Indianapolis. Then look at the worst- Cleveland, and Detroit in recent years.
Any starter on the field who was the best at his position would make an enourmous difference on one of your cloned teams- take a look at what antonio gates did this year- those mismatches made Drew Brees look like a pro bowler.

[Jamper]

[ QUOTE ]
Thought experiment:

You assemble 2 squads, A and B. Both squads consist of 30 players who are genetically engineered to represent an average NFL player. So the two teams are clones of each other, and thus have excatly 50 per cent chance of winning a match between the two.

Now Team A are offered the choice to choose any quarterback in the world. Their winning percentage is now how much?

Now instead of this, Team A are offered to choose any player in the world, provided he is not a quarterback. How much is their winning percentage now?

[/ QUOTE ]

This seems to be more of a logic puzzle...

1. The Qback - 90% +
2. The best dual purpose kicker/punter - 90% +
2. The best dual purpose offense/defense capable player - 90% +

Any one of these players would give his team an edge of x average yards per play. Multiply x by the # of plays per game to determine the player's overall impact.

If instead of lasting 60 minutes, the game lasted 60 hours, then the win % would go to almost 100%, b/c variance begins to be smoothed out.

It's doubtful that this was the type of answer that your were seeking, but this line of thought does bring out an element of the game that has not yet been mentioned:

The impact of x yards per play is cumulative because football is a series of "wars" over field position. These wars can strech over many series of offensive/defensive possesions. Field position only gets reset after points are scored and then a kickoff starts the new war. [And at half-time] For example:

Each time Team A gets possesion of the ball, they want to move it as far as they can. Then Team A's defense wants to hold Team B to as little yards gained as possible. If Team A is better than Team B, both offensively &amp; defensively, then over a number of possesions, Team A's starting position will get better and better. Eventually, their starting position will be so good that they will be able to score.

I hope this answer provides a better grasp of what football is all about.

-jamp