I'm a card mechanic.

[The_Tracker]

I am a dealer in Vegas. I have been practicing card control and manipulation at home just for kicks. Blind riffles, blind shuffles, blind cuts, bottom dealing, second dealing, stock shuffling, cull shuffling, palming etc.
I have not, and will not attempt anything like this while on the job, but I wouldn't mind giving it a try in a home game of sorts. I wouldn't want to cheat my friends so finding the right game is hard. Especially in this town. Everyone just goes to the casino.
Anyone else put any practice into this? Anyone else put this into practice in a game? Anyone ever catch a hanger and get the [censored] kicked out of them by 50 cops?

[Lottery Larry]

Why are you expecting any answers on this, cheat? Go to RGP where you belong

[Arsene Lupin III]

You're a disgrace for even thinking about cheating at poker. I'm sure the people you scam will feel the same way. I hope you don't get your ass kicked, or worse.

[jtr]

Not much anyone can say about your cheating plans. But I thought this was interesting:

[ QUOTE ]
...so finding the right game is hard. Especially in this town. Everyone just goes to the casino.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice point, had never thought of this before. Probably really tough to get a home game organized in Vegas.

[TheJunkyardGod]

[ QUOTE ]
Not much anyone can say about your cheating plans. But I thought this was interesting:

[ QUOTE ]
...so finding the right game is hard. Especially in this town. Everyone just goes to the casino.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice point, had never thought of this before. Probably really tough to get a home game organized in Vegas.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not according to "Tilt" just make sure you check your guns at the door.

And for most home games, at least not serious ones the players arent paying attention to the dealer shuffleing the cards. Just for kicks i've (blatantly) gone through the deck and organized cards just to see how things panned out. Never for myself, just for my own amusement in my friendly home game.
Noone ever notices.

[RunDownHouse]

[ QUOTE ]
And for most home games, at least not serious ones the players arent paying attention to the dealer shuffleing the cards. Just for kicks i've (blatantly) gone through the deck and organized cards just to see how things panned out.

[/ QUOTE ]
You mean people trust their friends not to cheat them out of their money? How shocking. Maybe you should try taking advantage of that trust so you can go out to eat a little more often.

[The_Tracker]

Cry me a river.
I have a deck of cards in my hands 8 hours a day, 5 days a week so it is really not to far of a strech to wonder what kind of control you can develop with the deck.
If I were able to sit in a home game with total strangers that were there to take my money, I would not have any moral qualms about cheating. It's foolish to think that 95% of people that you might play with, wouldn't do the same thing if they were capable.
Can we be any more naive?

[Richard Tanner]

Big line between thinking about doing it and doing it. You've crossed it, and I'm not going to judge you. To each their own. However, many people on the site wouldn't cross said line and that's where the animosity comes from.

Cody

[The_Tracker]

[ QUOTE ]
Big line between thinking about doing it and doing it. You've crossed it, and I'm not going to judge you. To each their own. However, many people on the site wouldn't cross said line and that's where the animosity comes from.

Cody

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I don't think you can say I have crossed any line until I actually attempted something in a game. That to me is the line. Not playing with a deck at home in my spare time.
I understand the animosity. I wouldn't want to be cheated. But I also know that when it comes to games of chance for money, MOST people will look for an edge to win.
I know enough not to be cheated, and so should all of you.

[Arsene Lupin III]

[ QUOTE ]
Cry me a river.

If I were able to sit in a home game with total strangers that were there to take my money, I would not have any moral qualms about cheating.

[/ QUOTE ]

Scratch that. I hope you DO get your ass kicked... or worse.

[The_Tracker]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Cry me a river.

If I were able to sit in a home game with total strangers that were there to take my money, I would not have any moral qualms about cheating.

[/ QUOTE ]

Scratch that. I hope you DO get your ass kicked... or worse.

[/ QUOTE ]

Since you are taking the moral high ground here a couple questions.
What would you do, if you were walking down the street and found a wallet with $5,000 in it, complete with the owners drivers license address and phone number?
Or rather, you are playing poker and are involved in a huge heads up pot (by your standards) and notice right as you're raking it that your opponent missed the fact that he had a winning flush hand?
Or how about, you move into a new house or apartment and realize that the cable company has failed to disconnect the cable?
In any of this situations, do you cheat someone, or take the moral high ground?
Don't lie.

[jtr]

Hmm. Good questions.

The wallet I give back, the poker hand I probably keep quiet about as the rules of the game say it's not my job to check what the other guy has, and the cable connection I take advantage of for as long as it's plausible to argue that I didn't realize what was going on. (I hate cable companies. If cable companies were morally good entities, I'd own up to the missed connection.)

YMMV.

I understand that if you deal all day, you'd be bound to wonder what can be done with a deck. I remember seeing Michael Close, a magician in the piano bar at the Monte Carlo, and after that show I was terrified of what could be done with a deck. Enough that I'm always going to be nervous about playing really high limits, I think.

And yes, you're right, people are often bastards and try to get an edge over each other. Look at insider trading on the stock market. Look, also, at Martha Stewart and hopefully soon, Ken Lay: society doesn't like the cheating when it gets too egregious, and we put you away.

Surely there's a happy middle ground between being a hopelessly naive hick who allows others to fleece him, and becoming the sort of predatory amoral jerk you seem in danger of becoming? Surely we can be cautious about the less-than-perfect intentions of others but still agree to play by the rules?

[Arsene Lupin III]

[ QUOTE ]

What would you do, if you were walking down the street and found a wallet with $5,000 in it, complete with the owners drivers license address and phone number?


[/ QUOTE ]

Return it. If he offers me award, accept so long as it isn't absurdly large.

[ QUOTE ]

Or rather, you are playing poker and are involved in a huge heads up pot (by your standards) and notice right as you're raking it that your opponent missed the fact that he had a winning flush hand?


[/ QUOTE ]

Give him the pot. If he insists on rewarding me for my honesty, I'd probably accept no more than 5% of the pot.

I've awarded a bunch of pots [in casinos and home games] to the correct hand after dealer mistakes or misreads.

[ QUOTE ]

Or how about, you move into a new house or apartment and realize that the cable company has failed to disconnect the cable?


[/ QUOTE ]

This one's tricky, because technically the contract could be prepaid. Also, corporations are evil things that act more in line with your cynical expectations of the world. Stealing from them is an entirely different matter than stealing from individuals. Additionally, with their profit-at-all costs nature, cable companies rarely if ever let this happen nowadays, so I would assume the cable had been stolen and, primarily with the motive of avoiding legal and criminal repercussions, let them know. I might watch a little free porn first, tho.

Let's not get the argument out of hand with this marginally relevant example.

[ QUOTE ]

In any of this situations, do you cheat someone, or take the moral high ground?
Don't lie.


[/ QUOTE ]

You can't justify something morally just because you can get away with something or you expect others to do that same thing were they able to avoid the consequences. The very fact that you'd be willing to walk into a home game and cheat other individuals without remorse makes you a discredit to humanity by the merit of your willingness to dishonest on a face-to-face, person-to-person level simply for the sake of profit. It's sad to see that you have as little faith in the rest of society's collective morality as you have in your own.

-adam

[mosch]

lupin is correct, and it is not close. Do you see why?

I'll let others elaborate.

[toots]

This is hilarious.

Suppose we have a heavyweight boxer who decides that to maximize his win rate, he'll only fight featherweights. When anyone calls him on it, he says "Hey, it's a fair fight," no matter how badly he pummels his undersized opponents.

Then one day, he catches his opponent using brass knuckles. He jumps out of the ring, screams "That's not fair!" and raises a holy stink.

People who aren't involved in this sport might have difficulty seeing where the clear line between cheating and not cheating is.

[RRRRICK]

About 8 years ago I caught a hanger in a home game who was dealing off the bottom of the deck. Yes I agree that in a home game no one is really looking out for a mechanic but when they get greedy(which you probably will)is when they leave themselves open to getting caught. After about 1-2 hours of play It became evident that this player was winning EVERY hand he dealt. So over the next 5/6 orbits I would politely fold my hole cards on his deal and try to catch a glimpse of something to support my suspicion. It didn't take long for me to develop the opinion that some cards where coming from the base but if you are going to accuse someone of cheating you better be 100% sure which I wasn't. So I focused my attention to the hands themselves and this is where he made his mistake. This guy always dealt himself excellent hole cards and ALWAYS drew a monster on the river. See it wasn't enough to win the hand this guy wanted the maximum from the pot betting out on miracle draws and hitting them, multiplayers with juicy pots. So I decided to pull him up on his next deal. He dealt the hole cards out and the community cards in the middle face down. I took a big gulp stood up and yelled "Stop everything get away from the cards, this guys dealing from the bottom of the deck and has been doing it all night". So the commotion began, needless to say he got very defensive. As calmly as possible I asked him to step away from the table and explained my theory to the rest of the players. Obviously we needed to see some proof and I openly stated that if I was wrong I would apologise and leave the game immediately. I turned over his holes JJ. Then the board 5676J, fair to say there was some anger flying around the room and that Mr Cheat left without his $1000+ winnings. For me personally I was relieved, I went out on on limb and had I been wrong I would have looked like a right royal a$$. Ever since that experience every time I sit down at a table I'm paranoid that someone is running something similar, subsequently I've stopped playing in home games with people I don't know. When youre paranoid and looking out for a cheat your game suffers and you start playing like a tool. So my advice to you is very simple...........Don't do it.

[random]

[ QUOTE ]
If I were able to sit in a home game with total strangers that were there to take my money, I would not have any moral qualms about cheating.

[/ QUOTE ] What the hell is wrong with you? How is this any different than mugging someone?

[RunDownHouse]

Besides the morality of "to steal or not to steal," there's a self-satisfaction issue as well. The best, most serious poker players I know enjoy the money that comes with the game, but they probably derive more enjoyment from the fact that they can beat the game. I'd love to make oodles of money playing poker, but I also love the competition and being able to play well, and cheating would completely kill that part of the game.

How much fun would that be?

[The_Tracker]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If I were able to sit in a home game with total strangers that were there to take my money, I would not have any moral qualms about cheating.

[/ QUOTE ] What the hell is wrong with you? How is this any different than mugging someone?

[/ QUOTE ]

Mugging someone? You are kidding right?
Poker is a sport. Poker is about money. I don't know about most of you, but I play poker to win money. It is also a fun game and I enjoy the competition. But first and foremost I am trying to win money.
Look at what is happening in other sports. Baseball, football, track and field for example. Everyone is on juice. Barry Bonds used steroids to gain an edge. And its about money, make no mistake. The more you excel at your sport, the more money you are going to make.
Besides, card manipulation is not something you do every single hand. It could be used to gain an advantage at the right moment however. Even if only to drag one large pot.
If you are not aware enough to know when someone might be cheating you at cards, then you don't deserve to keep your money. I fear that those of you that are so against this idea, are the very ones that would be completley in the dark if being cheated.

[TabascoJRC]

It would be interesting to see what your employer thinks about this thread.

[The_Tracker]

[ QUOTE ]
It would be interesting to see what your employer thinks about this thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not stupid enough to even consider doing something like this at work. Period.

[Homer]

[ QUOTE ]
Cry me a river.
I have a deck of cards in my hands 8 hours a day, 5 days a week so it is really not to far of a strech to wonder what kind of control you can develop with the deck.
If I were able to sit in a home game with total strangers that were there to take my money, I would not have any moral qualms about cheating. It's foolish to think that 95% of people that you might play with, wouldn't do the same thing if they were capable.
Can we be any more naive?

[/ QUOTE ]

You're a waste of humanity. Congrats.

[Lumpy]

[ QUOTE ]


I am not stupid enough to even consider doing something like this at work. Period.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think the leap from stupid to stupid enough is that far for you.

[bisonbison]

Woah, this thread got derailed pretty fast by the haters.

I don't see what the real problem is. The_Tracker has a skill and it's begging to be used. If other people aren't aware, then they're failing to do their due diligence. That's not his problem.

Real world example: I'd been dating this girl (let's call her Henrietta) for 2 years. She happened to be going out of town at the exact same time her sister Geraldine was visiting, and Gerry was going to stay at Henny's apartment, where I had a key.

Now Gerry and I had never gotten along that well, but I knew she was really trashy cause Henny would always talk sh[/b]it about her behind her back. Gerry was just going to visit some friends while she was back home, but I thought, why not try to bang her? I mean, she looked alright and come on, sisters, that's hot.

So I went over to Henny's place one afternoon to scout things out, and I let myself in but it turns out that Gerry wasn't home, so I was snooping around, you know, rifling through her bags and rubbing my body with her shower puff when I heard a key in the front door. Holy sh[/b]it! So I ran out of the bathroom but I realized I was half naked, so I just dove right under Henny's bed in a panic. I thought I was going to poo myself, which would have been doubly bad cause I was wearing Gerry's panties.

So she comes in and sits down on the living room couch and starts watching tv. It's 3 in the afternoon and there's no way I can get out of the apartment cause the windows either A) don't open or are B) too small and the only door out is right next to the TV. So I think, well, maybe she'll go to the bathroom, then I can run or something and besides maybe she'll get really horny watching tv and masturbate on the couch cause that'd be really hot.

But no, two hours go by and there's not a peep from her and she's watching some kind of Undercover Brother marathon where they talk to all the actors and the guy who produced the first internet shorts and then they run the movie and then the movie again with commentary, and she's not really getting turned on but she is laughing a lot which is not hot cause she has kind of a horsey snort when she thinks shi[/b]t's really funny.

Now, by this time, I'm just kind of pissed, cause I've gone through all this effort to scout the apartment for stuff I can blackmail her with so I can drop it in her, but she didn't pack anything dirty, not a dildo or a romance novel or anything, just Jane magazine and some linguistics book. Lame.

And that's when I realize: my pants are right beside the couch. In my hurry to scout things out, I'd sorta just ripped my clothes off without thinking of contingency plans, and if she so much as got up for a soda, I'd be dead. There'd be a heap of men's clothes right in the middle of the room and she'd call the cops. Not good, and waiting for her to go to the bathroom wasn't going to work cause same problem.

I knew action was required, so as quietly as I could, I unplugged the bedside lamp and picked it up and also removed the shade and bulb to make it easier to carry. I tiptoed up behind her and hit her as cleanly as I could on the side of the head right behind her right ear. There was a gross soft crunch as she fell forward onto the coffee table, but she didn't even whimper and she wasn't bleeding so I think it went pretty well.

And then after I put my clothes on and was ready to leave I just was looking at her lying unconscious in a shallow pond of her own drool and I realized that she was never that hot to begin with and especially not now with that big old welt on her head. I was already dating her sister, and Henny could be a freak, so why bother?

Almost made me wish that Gerry had caught me so I could have told her what an ugly ho she was, but I wasn't gonna complain. Long story short: she should have been wearing a helmet.

[whiskeytown]

no but I did kick Famke Jensen to the curb one night instead of doing her like she wanted.

RB

[wingsfan]

OMFG. I for one, wanted to let you know that was some of the funniest [censored] I've read in a long time.

[TimM]

I was going to reply to the OP, but after this there is really nothing left to say. /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[RunDownHouse]

[ QUOTE ]
If other people aren't aware, then they're failing to do their due diligence. That's not his problem.

[/ QUOTE ]
I make a living scamming old folks out of their retirement funds. And I started with my own grandparents and friends of the family. Its not my fault they're gullible!

[TabascoJRC]

I am a professional chemist for NASA. I have been practicing producing mild hallucinogens at home for kicks. LSD, mescaline, PCP, and even Rohypnol (“rufies”).
I have not, and will not attempt to give any of this to my coworkers, but i wouldn't mind taking it to a home poker game of sorts. I wouldn't want to cheat my friends so finding a bunch of people who don't know I am a lunatic will be hard. So what do you think about me slipping it into the guys drink at the table and taking thier money afterwards whilst I have the advantage. I mean it's their own dumb fault for not knowing thatI know how to make these drugs and can slip them in their drinks. They'll be fine the next day anyway.
/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[warewulf]

bisonbison - if that's a true story (sounds made up to make a point) then you're a freak. If it's not a true story, well you're still a freak. /images/graemlins/smile.gif Interesting reading though.

Mechanic - You can justify scamming people all you want. I hope you get caught. I have been around when cheaters have been caught. Sometimes it's peaceful and they are walked out and banned, not hurt though. Sometimes they get hurt really bad or killed, obviously depending on the crowd.

Obviously you will make up your own mind. The real question is whether you have morals or not. Sounds like you don't. AT ALL. Furthermore, if you need that extra edge, you must suck as a Poker player.

Karma can be a bitch.

[Fins]

I think bison's right on here... maybe we all need to be wearing helmets but just because we're not doesn't mean we should be taken advantage of even if we're lying in our own drool. Besides Henny will get all up in our face if we get caught.

Henny's to you!

ROTFLMAO,
Fins

[Steve Giufre]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It would be interesting to see what your employer thinks about this thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not stupid enough to even consider doing something like this at work. Period.

[/ QUOTE ]

But why? You have already made it very clear that you would have no problem doing this in a home game. I assume for you its just a risk VS reward situation. You would not be risking as much in a private game because the worst that would happen is that you would probably get a size 11 shoe in the testicles and a pretty good beating to go along with it. In a casino you would obviously lose your job and that would change your lifestyle. But suppose you got into a situation in a casino where the potential reward went way up and maybe the risk goes down a little because you have gotten better at being a scumbag. Maybe you deal a real big game, get a chance to pick off a jackpot, whatever. You would have a hard time convincing me that you wouldnt think about doing something dishonest while on the job. The fact that you work in a casino bothers me.

[RRRRICK]

So basically in this single thread we have established that this forum contains a cheat,a sexual pervert, a scam artist who cons old people out of money and a chemist who wants to drug people at the table........very nice world we live in

[Richard Tanner]

Please tell me this is sarcastic. You know they were joking right?

Cody

[Spooky]

Bison, thanks man... thats got to be about the funniest reply I've ever read.

[RRRRICK]

I sure hope they're joking excluding card cheat who we know is serious

[Richard Tanner]

I'm thinking they are, and yeah the cheat isn't.

Cody

[RackOChips]

This guy sounds like some punk who's watched Rounders a few too many times. Even the rhetoric is the same. What a loser.

[CaptLego]

Why not just buy a gun and rob people at gunpoint? Or maybe just break into their house when they're not home and take whatever you want? That way, you're not limited to stealing just from poker players.

[Arsene Lupin III]

[ QUOTE ]

I don't know about most of you, but I play poker to win money. It is also a fun game and I enjoy the competition. But first and foremost I am trying to win money.

Look at what is happening in other sports. Baseball, football, track and field for example. Everyone is on juice. I fear that those of you that are so against this idea, are the very ones that would be completley in the dark if being cheated.

[/ QUOTE ]

This justifies nothing.

Could someone remind me how to block/ignore someone's posts? I need to plonk/killfile this troll.

-adam

[Arsene Lupin III]

Bottom of the page (http://cardplayer.com/poker_tournaments/results.php?event_id=1714&writeup=1)

JBWPO poker dealer Bob Carter found a bag in the men’s restroom yesterday. Incredibly, the bag contained a whopping $84,000 in cash. Carter turned in the money, which was later claimed by the rightful owner. Carter received a generous tip for his honesty. The poker award for integrity for this tournament goes to Bob Carter, from Kansas City, MO.

[larrondo]

Your 'moral questions' are not in any way analogous.

I hope one of the people you try to cheat has 'relations' with your wife.

[The_Tracker]

[ QUOTE ]
Why not just buy a gun and rob people at gunpoint? Or maybe just break into their house when they're not home and take whatever you want? That way, you're not limited to stealing just from poker players.

[/ QUOTE ]

You people can [censored] off. You are taking this way to far. I mention that I have practiced card control at home and suddenly I am a gun weilding mugging thug. WAY over the top folks.
Oh yeah, where in ANY of my posts did it say I had actually attempted anything in a game? It doesn't, why, because I haven't. If any of you dealt cards for a living you would begin to realize that you can do some pretty cool things with a deck of cards. You can only practice a riffle, strip, box and pitch so long before you perfect it. I can also do some magic tricks with a deck too. Should I go out and rob some magicians at gun point now? Christ.
And to those of you that think I would cheat at work, well, you really aren't worth responding to. Jumping to to many stupid conclusions.
There is something called "procedure" that is followed by all dealers of a casino, and this procedure is what makes cheating basically impossible. The procedure doesn't allow for it. Oh and the cameras and players closely watching as well. You morons really don't know how things work apparently.

Way to blow this way out of proportion. Thanks for the name calling, and if I decide to attempt a cheat at a game of poker I hope I am playing with you fine people so you can have the pleasure of kicking my ass.

End of discussion for me.

[RRRRICK]

The fact that you haven't used your powers for evil as of yet is one thing BUT you did say in your original post that u wouldn't mind giving it a try in a home. So you're not a lying cheating lowlife scumbag as of yet. But let me say F@#K U in advance for when you follow through on your idea.

[RackOChips]

Tracker, the point is that cheating is stealing. The fact that this isn't implicitly obvious to you is a bit alarming.

[Snowslide]

Tracker, just curious, as I have been starting to host home games.
What do you think your plan of action would be if you were caught?
Would you just get up and leave your money at the table? Would you run? With the money?
Do you look for other mechanics in the games you play, and would you call them on it if you yourself were 'doing your thing'?
Also, if you were cought, what do you think the other players would be justified in doing?
I am assuming we are talking about a decent amount of money for an 'average' person.
I don't know exactly were I stand on the whole cheating thing, as we all have to justify our actions to ourselves, but I can say it would be pretty intersting catching someone doing that at my home game. Chances are, they would not be playing poker or dealing atleast, for a while. And it would be hard for them to find a game in my city afterwards. Not judging you or anything, but I really am curious about this, as I just don't see it being profitable over the long haul.

Thanks,
*mike*

PS, is there any "Spot a mechanic" FAQ's out there?

[FatMan]

This quote comes from Doyle Brunson's book, "Poker Wisdom of a Champion."

"I don't want to be so pompous as to dictate how you should run your life, but to me finding a fair challenge beats searching for suckers."

I think that says that says it all.

[Arsene Lupin III]

[ QUOTE ]
You people can [censored] off. You are taking this way to far. I mention that I have practiced card control at home and suddenly I am a gun weilding mugging thug. WAY over the top folks.
Oh yeah, where in ANY of my posts did it say I had actually attempted anything in a game? You morons really don't know how things work apparently.

[/ QUOTE ]

I post intelligent, non-belligerent replies to your declaration of (or at least your having no qualms about your) intent to cheat home games with your 1337m3(h4n1(sk1||5 (elite mechanic skills).


Thank you for entirely ignoring my responses. I take this as a sign of your total resignation and my victory in the debate.

You can censored off, too! /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/mad.gif

[toots]

[ QUOTE ]
This quote comes from Doyle Brunson's book, "Poker Wisdom of a Champion."

"I don't want to be so pompous as to dictate how you should run your life, but to me finding a fair challenge beats searching for suckers."

I think that says that says it all.

[/ QUOTE ]

But, very few people who post on 2+2 are looking for a fair challenge. Most of them seem to be in search of a distinctly unfair challenge, which they call a "soft game" or a "juicy game."

[CaptLego]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This quote comes from Doyle Brunson's book, "Poker Wisdom of a Champion."

"I don't want to be so pompous as to dictate how you should run your life, but to me finding a fair challenge beats searching for suckers."

I think that says that says it all.

[/ QUOTE ]

But, very few people who post on 2+2 are looking for a fair challenge. Most of them seem to be in search of a distinctly unfair challenge, which they call a "soft game" or a "juicy game."

[/ QUOTE ]

I think there's a distinction to be made here..
A) You might be interested in testing your skills against the best players --- the "challenge"
B) You might be interested in making money -- the "soft" or "juicy" game. In that case, you hope the other players are less skilled. This would still be "fair", just less of a challenge.

But to me, "fair" implies that everybody is playing by the same rules. If I'm playing in a game and making the assumption that the cards are dealt randomly, while in actuality other players are stacking the deck -- the game is "unfair". Others may have more skill than me -- that's still "fair". But if they're playing by different rules -- that's unfair. I relate "unfair" to "cheating".

If the home game rules allow for stacking the deck or other card manipulation techniques, then that's OK as long as the rules are clearly stated. I wouldn't want to play in that game, though, since I'd just have to fold every hand dealt by a mechanic.

So with these definitions,
A fair challenge is fine.
A fair no-challenge is juicy.
An unfair no-challenge makes me the cheater, and I have no interest in that.
An "unfair challenge" is the game I most want to avoid.

[toots]

As I noted previously, a heavyweight boxer might figure he just wants to win and therefore only chooses to fight featherweights. Just because he then follows the rules of boxing doesn't make it a fair fight.

[msb]

Quick question... Call me naive, but wouldn't a cut-card and having the player to the right of the dealer (assuming they weren't in cahoots) cut the deck pretty much take care of most of these things?

If not... please explain.

[warewulf]

Yeah, most of my games, the dealer doesn't handle the deck until it's ready. Last dealer shuffles, next person cuts.

I know there are ways to try to rig a deck so someone cuts where you want them to. That's why I always square the deck before cutting.

[CaptLego]

[ QUOTE ]
As I noted previously, a heavyweight boxer might figure he just wants to win and therefore only chooses to fight featherweights. Just because he then follows the rules of boxing doesn't make it a fair fight.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK.
We're using a different definition of "fair". I see your point, and that is indeed common usage.

From my definition/usage, I'd have to say that if the rules of boxing allow heavyweights to compete in the featherweight division or vice-versa, and both combatants are aware of the rules ---- then yes, the fight would be "fair" albeit quite one-sided.

So if I were to sit down at the Belagio w/ Mr. Brunson, I'd consider the game "fair", but still expect to lose all my $.
If I thought I was good enough to even understand why I was losing, I might consider the poker lesson worth the cost.

[WeirdoC]

I've been doing card tricks for years, and I doubt it would take a whole lot more practice for me to get to where I could give myself a little edge in a home game. But the fact you seem to overlook is that most home games are easy to mop up using legitimate poker skills without stooping to cheating.

Card manipulation is a wonderful ability to have if you like to entertain people with sleight of hand. But what you are talking about doing is using that skill to make up for a lack of skill at playing poker. The analogy made earlier about a Heavyweight fighting a Featherweight is a great poker analogy in that if a Featherweight is stupid enough to fight a Heavyweight in an otherwise even match, he's an idiot and the Heavyweight deserves to win. But if the same Featherweight gets into the ring, pulls a pistol, and shoots the other guy halfway through the fight, that just makes him a pathetic loser who couldn't win without cheating.

If you need to make money by sleight of hand, go perform card magic for a living. Or learn how to play poker and beat the game straight up. But don't be so pathetic as to cheat. And if you are that pathetic, don't bemoan your fate when you get the crap kicked out of you by some ex-soldiers that catch you cheating in a home game. It's nobody's fault but your own. And it's gonna be awfully hard to bottom deal with eight broken metacarpals...

[FatMan]

I'm sure Doyle is always looking for a soft game. We all are, but that is very different than cheating. Doyle's point is you can make more money in the long run by playing honestly against weak players rather than trying to hustle them. Remember you can only skin a sheep once, you can shear them over and over and over.......

[toots]

Different from cheating, but very close to cheating.

Nothing ruins a poker player's day more than a level playing field. The last thing in the world a poker player wants is an evenly matched game, meaning that poker players tend to be about the poorest sports when it comes to competition you'll ever find.

Drawing some arbitrary line between that and cheating is just drawing an arbitrary line. I just have to laugh when I read of people going out of their way trying to find some unsuspecting people to fleece (while avoiding those of similar or greater skill), who are the first to jump up and scream "cheater" when someone tries this.

Yeah, it's cheating, but looking for soft games is little better.

[Felix_Nietsche]

Lets talk about something practical that can benefit 2+2ers.

I have read that you can spot a mechanic by listening when they shuffle the deck. I have also heard it is practically impossible to catch a mechanic. The only clue being how they hold the deck... Any advice on how to protect yourself from a mechanic?

[The_Tracker]

[ QUOTE ]
Lets talk about something practical that can benefit 2+2ers.

I have read that you can spot a mechanic by listening when they shuffle the deck. I have also heard it is practically impossible to catch a mechanic. The only clue being how they hold the deck... Any advice on how to protect yourself from a mechanic?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would have been more than happy to when I started the original post. That was the point.

The childish name calling and insistence on me being a gun weilding thug for practicing card mechanics ended the discussion for me.

Intelligent discussion is not possible on this forum. To many insecure adolescence.

[Arsene Lupin III]

[ QUOTE ]
The childish name calling and insistence on me being a gun weilding thug for practicing card mechanics ended the discussion for me.

Intelligent discussion is not possible on this forum. To many insecure adolescence.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe if you didn't ignore the sound counterarguments I presented, instead deciding to focus on the flames...

[hoterdoc]

didn't you mean "too many insecure adolescenTS"?
or was it "too MUCH insecure adolescenCE"? (which makes less sense.)
doc

[smoore]

Here, felix:

http://cardshark.us/

he makes you pay for the more advanced stuff but some stuff is free.

And by the way, most people that actually pitch cards when they deal use the "mechanics grip". I guess the other grip is "can't deal for crap" grip. I couldn't pick anyone off because of the way that they hold the deck.

The different noise isn't when they shuffle it's when they second or bottom deal. There's a slight popping noise that goes along with the "swoosh" of the card coming off. Only way to hear this noise is to either bottom deal yourself or get someone like The_Tracker to do it in front of you over and over so that you learn it's sound. I doubt if most recording/playback equipment could capture the subtle difference. In a noisy card room I don't think I'd catch it.

The big, BIG way of spotting a mechanic comes when he's building his "runt". The runt is the small stub of cards the mechanic is planning on controlling and it's the most obvious action he will perform. He's got to get the 4 or 8 or whatever cards he wants seperate from the rest of the muck for just a second so he can organize them in relation to the deck. Some signs of this may include dropping the muck on top of other cards or putting a group of cards onto the muck. Anyone who isn't completely stupid would do this while the muck is still messy and not in a square deck.

I guess it's possible someone could "double duke" you in live play but MAN they would have to be good. Basically, they would build two runts; your hand and his hand. *Then*, he's got to deal from each of these runts while giving the other players cards from somewhere else. If he was good at building runts he could probably get four into A-K-A-K on the bottom so that you got the kings and he got the aces but that's not a lock win, just an edge.

I would think that if someone was going to cheat you in a home game they would probably use a cold deck (switch the shuffled one out for a stacked one). This slight of hand is pretty simple. An amateur will probably shuffle and then stretch, ending up bringing his hands under the table. That's when they switch them. Always keep the cards above the table, please.

edit: hey, The_Tracker... as a fledgling mechanic, do you think you could learn to double duke someone in a multiway game? i.e. two runts and then center deal for the rest of the people? That seems insanely hard but I can't even false shuffle well. I'm ok with straight bottom dealing but no expert.

[FatMan]

It is not an arbritrary line. It is a big bold dark line separating the two. Cheating is illegal and the majority of players are against it. Selecting weak oppponents is legal and accepted by the majority of players. You are just trying to rationalize an illegal act.

All other players have access to the same material I have used to increase my knowledge and hopefully skill at playing poker. If they have not invested the same amount of time and effort that I have then that is their choice.

[The_Tracker]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The childish name calling and insistence on me being a gun weilding thug for practicing card mechanics ended the discussion for me.

Intelligent discussion is not possible on this forum. To many insecure adolescence.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe if you didn't ignore the sound counterarguments I presented, instead deciding to focus on the flames...

[/ QUOTE ]

I see no need to continue the arguement with you. It was not my intention to debate the righteousness of card mechanics. It is cheating and we all understand that.
The thread could have gone in a diffrent direction is all.
Seems some people are actually interested in learning a bit more about it, be it to protect themselves or otherwise.

[XXXXING FISH]

solitaire

[warewulf]

[ QUOTE ]

I see no need to continue the arguement with you. It was not my intention to debate the righteousness of card mechanics. It is cheating and we all understand that.
The thread could have gone in a diffrent direction is all.
Seems some people are actually interested in learning a bit more about it, be it to protect themselves or otherwise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course, none of us are going to, in any way, justify what you're doing. We just want info on stopping people like you.

Most of the games I go to, the dealer doesn't handle the deck. It is shuffled by the last dealer, cut by a person in the middle, then handed to the new dealer. Is there any flaw in this system? Obviously if two are working together and can sit near each other. Any others?

[The_Tracker]

[ QUOTE ]

edit: hey, The_Tracker... as a fledgling mechanic, do you think you could learn to double duke someone in a multiway game? i.e. two runts and then center deal for the rest of the people? That seems insanely hard but I can't even false shuffle well. I'm ok with straight bottom dealing but no expert.

[/ QUOTE ]

This can be done by stock shuffling. If you wanted a two card stock, you place the two desired cards on top, undercut about halfway, in-jog the top card, run two less than twice the number of players, out-jog and shuffle off. Then undercut to the out-jog, forming a break at the in-jog, run one less than number of players, in-jog and shuffle off. Undercut again to in-jog and throw on top. The desired cards will now come to the dealer in the first two rounds. This obviously has to be done with a hand shuffle which is maybe not common for most home games.
This can also be done with 3, 4, or higher stocks.

[toots]

I'm not trying to rationalize cheating.

It's just that trying to rationalize poor sportsmanship then popping up and screaming cheater is a grey pot calling the kettle black.

It isn't the flaming a guy for cheating that I object to. It's trying to take a moral high ground when you're only imperceptibly higher is what I find laughable.

[The_Tracker]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I see no need to continue the arguement with you. It was not my intention to debate the righteousness of card mechanics. It is cheating and we all understand that.
The thread could have gone in a diffrent direction is all.
Seems some people are actually interested in learning a bit more about it, be it to protect themselves or otherwise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course, none of us are going to, in any way, justify what you're doing. We just want info on stopping people like you.

Most of the games I go to, the dealer doesn't handle the deck. It is shuffled by the last dealer, cut by a person in the middle, then handed to the new dealer. Is there any flaw in this system? Obviously if two are working together and can sit near each other. Any others?

[/ QUOTE ]

This eliminates alot of cheating. However, if someone is good enough, and they are gathering the muck, they could "possibly" stock or cull the deck, crimp for the proper cut and still obtain the cards of their choice. Would be difficult. Also, palming cards and holding one out is also possible. Beware of these things. Count the stub every so often to double check.

[RunDownHouse]

[ QUOTE ]
As I noted previously, a heavyweight boxer might figure he just wants to win and therefore only chooses to fight featherweights. Just because he then follows the rules of boxing doesn't make it a fair fight.

[/ QUOTE ]
The problem with this analagoy is that the boxer would not, in fact, be following the rules, since the rules clearly set divisions between competitors. A similar analogy would be the real-life case of that pitcher who played on a championship Little League baseball team even though he was over the age limit. He followed all the rules of the actual game, but he did not follow the rules of the league, and thus was cheating.

Another similar example is an athlete who uses steroids. Sure, while playing they don't break any rules, but they're still cheating, right?

However, nobody would ever argue that using natural ability to its fullest is cheating. If I wanted to race Michael Johnson, and proceeded to scream "Cheat!" when I got smoked, I'd be ridiculed and my friends would desert me quickly, realizing I was a complete dumbass.

Using natural ability to gain a natural advantage is ok. Baseball players take batting practice, tennis stars study their opponent's favorite techniques, poker players study the game. Using mechanical means to gain advantage, like baseball players juicing, marathon runners taking shortcuts, and poker dealers manipulating the shuffle, is cheating.

[toots]

So much rationalizing just to excuse one's own poor sportsmanship.

[RunDownHouse]

[ QUOTE ]
So much rationalizing just to excuse one's own poor sportsmanship.

[/ QUOTE ]
So much rationalizing just to excuse cheating, in the case of coming up with ill-fitting and misleading analogies. Terming it rationalization implies that there's some sort of specious reasoning or shady assumption being made to justify an unethical act (as with the boxer analogy). The actual case is pretty black and white: nobody pities the fat man for losing a sprint to an Olympian, and nobody strips the medal from the Olympian for beating someone clearly competing over their head.

Of course, you can feel free to refute any of this instead of pumping out a hasty one-liner.

[RRRRICK]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

edit: hey, The_Tracker... as a fledgling mechanic, do you think you could learn to double duke someone in a multiway game? i.e. two runts and then center deal for the rest of the people? That seems insanely hard but I can't even false shuffle well. I'm ok with straight bottom dealing but no expert.

[/ QUOTE ]

This can be done by stock shuffling. If you wanted a two card stock, you place the two desired cards on top, undercut about halfway, in-jog the top card, run two less than twice the number of players, out-jog and shuffle off. Then undercut to the out-jog, forming a break at the in-jog, run one less than number of players, in-jog and shuffle off. Undercut again to in-jog and throw on top. The desired cards will now come to the dealer in the first two rounds. This obviously has to be done with a hand shuffle which is maybe not common for most home games.
This can also be done with 3, 4, or higher stocks.

[/ QUOTE ]

What the hell does all of this mean?

[walterberk]

it means he's really cool and can do card tricks so watch out for this [censored] next time you play your home game.

[The_Tracker]

[ QUOTE ]
it means he's really cool and can do card tricks so watch out for this [censored] next time you play your home game.

[/ QUOTE ]

What it really means "newbie" is that most people have probably a .05% chance of running into this kind of cheating in their home game.
The fact of the matter is it takes as much if not more study and practice to skillfully cheat at cards than it does to play straight.
The kind of cheating you are likely to run into is some dope trying to mark a card, or hold an ace in his lap or something. Use a brand new deck, and have another brand new deck on hand. Should eliminate most problems.

Let this thread die already. Its really quite lame.

[smoore]

Yeah, The_Tracker is right. Cheating in home games isn't going to be mechanics. Hell, I cheat in home games but I'm not good enough to manipulate the cards. Fortunately, I don't have to, the fools mark them for me. All I have to do is note which card is marked which way and then act accordingly.

So moral high-grounders, am I a f**ktard? Am I bilking my friends out of money? I have not manipulated the cards, I have not marked them myself. I have simply failed to call for a new deck. I'm a dick, huh?

[toots]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So much rationalizing just to excuse one's own poor sportsmanship.

[/ QUOTE ]
So much rationalizing just to excuse cheating, in the case of coming up with ill-fitting and misleading analogies. Terming it rationalization implies that there's some sort of specious reasoning or shady assumption being made to justify an unethical act (as with the boxer analogy). The actual case is pretty black and white: nobody pities the fat man for losing a sprint to an Olympian, and nobody strips the medal from the Olympian for beating someone clearly competing over their head.

Of course, you can feel free to refute any of this instead of pumping out a hasty one-liner.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't excuse the cheating.

I just put your being a bad sport in the same bucket, that's all. I think you're being a hypocrit saying "That's cheating" while at the same time supporting an interpretation of sportsmanship that happens to always give you the edge.

Before you shout "cheater," check your own house.

[walterberk]

If you cheat or condone cheating at anything then you are a less than honorable person.

[ericslagle]

Totally serious here - I cheated once playing strip poker. We had been drinking for hours and I don't know if she noticed or not, but I had aces up or better every hand the whole time. Does anyone think that it's unethical to cheat at strip poker?

[wingsfan]

Don't ethics go out the windows once you're playing strip poker?

[Iamafish]

This guy is an idiot.

Why would you even tell anyone you can cheat, even online. What a stupid post.

I bet he was expecting everyone to say, wow, your so cool.

There is a difference between being cool, and trying to be cool.

[Iamafish]

[ QUOTE ]
This can be done by stock shuffling. If you wanted a two card stock, you place the two desired cards on top, undercut about halfway, in-jog the top card, run two less than twice the number of players, out-jog and shuffle off. Then undercut to the out-jog, forming a break at the in-jog, run one less than number of players, in-jog and shuffle off. Undercut again to in-jog and throw on top. The desired cards will now come to the dealer in the first two rounds. This obviously has to be done with a hand shuffle which is maybe not common for most home games.
This can also be done with 3, 4, or higher stocks.

[/ QUOTE ]

This tells me you are a total amature...if not a BSer about working at a casino.

Quit acting like you know something.

Don't ever try cheating in a real game.

[Iamafish]

[ QUOTE ]

Let this thread die already. Its really quite lame.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats funny.

[Fins]

[ QUOTE ]
Totally serious here - I cheated once playing strip poker. We had been drinking for hours and I don't know if she noticed or not, but I had aces up or better every hand the whole time. Does anyone think that it's unethical to cheat at strip poker?

[/ QUOTE ]
Hey if the gloves come off... all's fair in love & war.

- Fins

[randomfish]

[ QUOTE ]
Using mechanical means to gain advantage, like baseball players juicing, marathon runners taking shortcuts, and poker dealers manipulating the shuffle, is cheating.

[/ QUOTE ]

So where does PokerTracker/PlayerView/PokerEdge/etc. fall?

[smoore]

[ QUOTE ]
So where does PokerTracker/PlayerView/PokerEdge/etc. fall?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's obviously cheating /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[RunDownHouse]

[ QUOTE ]
So where does PokerTracker/PlayerView/PokerEdge/etc. fall?

[/ QUOTE ]
In the same area as looking up a batter's average against lefties, studying film of your next opponent's favorite defense on third-and-long, and keeping track of how many service errors your opponent is making on any one day.

Public information is just that: public. By definition, there's no advantage available to anyone in public information.

[slydeni]

Give it up.

I am a magician, and am able to do many of the moves that could manipulate a card game. DONT CHEAT!!! Have some integrity.If you want to use the skills - take up magic and do it for entertainment purposes only! It is much more rewarding to do it for laughs, and maybe to impress gals than to cheat.

It says a lot about your character that you would consider trying this to cheat. STOP NOW and take up magic. You'll thank me.

sly

[smoore]

I was really waiting for someone to break out the pokertracker/playerview cheat before I came into this thread.

Anyone who thinks that manipulating a deck of cards is any different than using a freakin' COMPUTER to track your opponents play and put hard, cold numbers within an eye-flick of the current action is fooling themself. The act is different, the result is the same... cheater gets the money.

If you're going to draw the line at mechanical manipulation then using a computer to gain an information edge is on the wrong side of moral. If you're going to play a square game, take the computer out of the equation.

I will personally continue to cheat like hell when it comes to pokertracker/playerview. I'm not going to fool myself into thinking that it's just "an extension of my memory" or "it's freely available to everyone". Lets face it, anyone with ambition and a little aptitude could learn how to cheat with a deck of cards or by capping chips or whatever.

[RunDownHouse]

[ QUOTE ]
I was really waiting for someone to break out the pokertracker/playerview cheat before I came into this thread.

[/ QUOTE ]
In that case, welcome to page 5 of the thread.

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone who thinks that manipulating a deck of cards is any different than using a freakin' COMPUTER to track your opponents play and put hard, cold numbers within an eye-flick of the current action is fooling themself. The act is different, the result is the same... cheater gets the money.

[/ QUOTE ]
I suppose you think that IBM's Deep Blue was cheating against Kasparov then, yes? I mean, it used numbers! In the blink of an eye! Oh, the horror! Because Kasparov wasn't able to compete, he must have been cheated!

Here's a question for you: if an opponent in a live game made a tally mark on a post-it every time you raised, would you call the floor because he was cheating?

[smoore]

The point of deep blue/Kasparov matches aren't for competition, the're to determine the current status of AI in the realm of chess.

Now... if I play Kasparov and use deep blue to make my moves, am I cheating? Of course I am. It's supposed to be human vs. human.

Is the guy with a notepad in a B&M cheating? Nope. If he uses his palm pilot to do the same thing and then crunches the numbers to help decide what to do he is.

[CaptLego]

[ QUOTE ]

Is the guy with a notepad in a B&M cheating? Nope. If he uses his palm pilot to do the same thing and then crunches the numbers to help decide what to do he is.

[/ QUOTE ]

Seriously? If you take a palm pilot to a casino, they'll kick you out?
If I use the palm to calculate pot odds, is that cheating?
If I have an index card with odds tables, is that cheating?
If I have an inspirational photo of my family as a card protector, is that cheating?

Now, if my Palm could predict which card will be dealt on the turn or the river --- that would be something.

If my Palm could secretly arrange for whatever cards I desired to be dealt to my opponents, myself, or the board --- now THAT would be cheating.

[RunDownHouse]

Lego demonstrated the ability for abstract thought that you are clearly lacking.

Honestly, the math involved in poker isn't that hard. Where do you draw the line between mental skill and mechanical advantage? If every player has a calculator in hand, do you consider every player to be cheating? What about if a player has an abacus, as opposed to a computer? Pad and pen instead of a computer?

Good luck drawing inferences from these simple questions!

[Spladle Master]

I nominate this for Post Of The Year.