On a downswing [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

Kluddeludde

01-22-2005, 10:12 PM

I usually take my downswings with ease, because I know that they will eventually turn around, but this month I've really hit the rock bottom and I am starting to doubt my ability to beat this game. Over the last 25k hands I've played I'm down about 70 BB and it doesn't seem to turn around. Therefore I decided to post a couple of randomly selected hands from my PT database for a couple of days and have you review them. Hopefully most of them are standard. If anyone think it will help if I post some stats as well, I will. Anyway, here are the first hands.

Hand 1:

UTG in this hand is 21.7/2.46/0.46. BB is unknown.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, Hero raises, 6 folds, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (6.40 SB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, BB folds, UTG calls.

Turn: (4.20 BB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets, UTG calls.

River: (6.20 BB) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
UTG bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 8.20 BB

Hand 2:

Both opponents are unknown.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif.
4 folds, MP3 calls, CO calls, 2 folds, Hero checks.

Flop: (3.40 SB) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
Hero bets, MP3 calls, CO folds.

Turn: (2.70 BB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, MP3 calls.

River: (4.70 BB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, MP3 calls.

Final Pot: 6.70 BB

Hand 3:

UTG in this hand is 20.7/10.9/1.76.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif. UTG posts a blind of $5.
UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls, 2 folds, Hero raises, 2 folds, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (7.40 SB) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
UTG+1 bets, MP2 folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.70 BB) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
UTG+1 bets, Hero raises, UTG+1 calls.

River: (8.70 BB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 calls.

Final Pot: 10.70 BB

I appreciate any and all help I can get. Thanks!

Kludde

jonahmavesin

01-22-2005, 10:20 PM

Hand 1 - I'd take the free card on 4th street here. You're drawing worse than the caller probably is, not all of your A or Q outs may be good. I'd check that through and save a bet.

Hand 2 - I'm assuming you lost since you posted, but I don't see to what. He'd raise a flush on the end, right? Was it Jx or something?

Hand 3 - Again, don't see what you lost to. Chopped with an Ace? I'd again assume a flush would raise. My only advice here is you may be better off raising the flop and trying for the free card than raising the turn on the semi-bluff. But I guess it depends on your reads.

wuarhg

01-22-2005, 10:23 PM

They all look pretty good to me. I think I've seen you around at 5/10, does your nickname at Party resemble your 2+2 name at all? I'm having a similiar period myself, gone 8,000 hands break-even, nothing as much as you though. It will turn around, that's a +EV bet /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Kluddeludde

01-23-2005, 09:17 AM

Hand 1 - I'd take the free card on 4th street here. You're drawing worse than the caller probably is, not all of your A or Q outs may be good. I'd check that through and save a bet.

I think that when I played this hand I figured there was to big a chance my hand was still best, since he may very well call the flop with two overcards and obviously a flush draw. That's the reason I bet.

I'm assuming you lost since you posted, but I don't see to what.

This is just random (well, almost) hands from my database, both hands I lost and hands I won. Just because I win a hand, doesn't necessarily mean I played it well.

My only advice here is you may be better off raising the flop and trying for the free card than raising the turn on the semi-bluff.

Now that I think about it, I really don't see what kind of better hands UTG+1 will fold if I raise on the turn here. However, the reason I didn't raise the flop was that I figured he was aggressive enough to bet into me again on the turn with something like a middle pair.

Thanks for responding!

Kludde

Kluddeludde

01-23-2005, 09:21 AM

I think I've seen you around at 5/10, does your nickname at Party resemble your 2+2 name at all?

Yup, my nickname is McLudde, so you've probably seen me. I hope you have a read on me as TAG. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

It will turn around, that's a +EV bet.

I hope so. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

Kludde

Evan

01-23-2005, 09:23 AM

I had a 160 bb downswing last Thursday, don't feel bad.

Kluddeludde

01-23-2005, 09:36 AM

I will try to go through these hands street by street and feel free to comment on my thinking.

Hand 1:

He had K /images/graemlins/heart.gifQ /images/graemlins/heart.gif and HHIG. Preflop in this hand is standard. Flop bet I think is standard as well, there's just to big a chance my hand is best at the moment. Turn is perhaps a bit debatable, though. I figured that he could be on two overcards, a flush draw or possibly a made hand at the moment (such as a pair+straight draw, made straight, overpair, etc), and that there was just to big a chance that my hand was still best. Perhaps this was foolish. On the river I figured that even though he is kind of passive, he will try to bluff this one 1 in 7 times for it to be profitable.

Hand 2:

He had Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gifJ /images/graemlins/heart.gif and MHIG. On the flop I figured there was a big chance my hand was best and I would have bet this even without the gutshot. On the turn I hit my straight and bet it. And even though the flush comes on the river, he will call me with worse hands more than 50% of the time to make a river bet profitable. I would also probably call a raise on the river, good?

Hand 3:

He had 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif9 /images/graemlins/club.gif and MHIG. Preflop is standard in this hand. Flop is perhaps debatable. I figured that he was just too likely to bet into me again on the turn, since he was pretty aggressive, if I raised the flop. Perhaps this was weak thinking on my part. The turn is debatable as well, and the more I think about it, the less I like it. I can't think of many better hands that he will fold to this raise. River, though, I think is a clear value bet.

Thanks for the responses!

Kludde

Kluddeludde

01-23-2005, 09:38 AM

Not feeling bad, just doubting my ability to beat the game. 160 BB is horrible by the way. I hope you were playing 6-max.

Kludde

Hoi Polloi

01-23-2005, 10:11 AM

FYI: I wrote the hand notes before I saw the results.

In the last week I've made back most of the 25% of my bankroll that I lost since the first of the year and boy does it feel good. Maybe I'm just in a bright patch in an even uglier downswing but I'm going to enjoy it now.

You are obviously going through a tough patch and I wish you better luck. I do detect 2 things. 1) The tone of your posts clearly reflect your loss of confidence. It's really hard to play well when you feel that way. Hell, isn't is always hard to play well? 2) Your play in 2 of these hands seems a little off.

Hand 1: Take the free card on the turn. You earned it and you probably need it. You have to play the board on the river. That's poker.

Hand 2: This looks fine to me.

Hand 3: I think you should raise or fold the flop. I would raise unless I have reads everytime. You can fold if he plays back or call and fold the turn bet. But I really think the call is weak here.

If you're really feeling like you can't beat the game take a break or play 2/4 for a couple of days...that'll get your mojo working. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

A break is probably best.

Good luck.

Rico Suave

01-23-2005, 12:19 PM

Kluddeludde:

[ QUOTE ]
Not feeling bad, just doubting my ability to beat the game.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know how you feel. I went through about 19k hands at the party 5/10 breaking even. I have had bad stretches before...200BB downswings, etc....but never over this extended length. It gets to the point where you feel you just suck and you doubt you will ever see 2 consecutive winning sessions.

If you hang in there, I am sure it will come around.......I have had a nice little run over that last 2500 hands that has eased the pain a bit.

--Rico

wuarhg

01-23-2005, 12:51 PM

From what I have seen, you're a solid player. This is a hand that I played against you and it was nicely played. I've gone through a 180bb downswing at 3/6 which was pretty frustrating but then again, who knows if I am that solid? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG (KluddeLudde) calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, Hero raises, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds, UTG (KluddeLudde) 3-bets, Hero calls.

Flop: (7.40 SB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
KluddeLudde bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.70 BB) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
KluddeLudde bets, Hero calls.

River: (6.70 BB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
KluddeLudde bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 8.70 BB

captZEEbo1

01-23-2005, 01:12 PM

results?

[ QUOTE ]
From what I have seen, you're a solid player. This is a hand that I played against you and it was nicely played. I've gone through a 180bb downswing at 3/6 which was pretty frustrating but then again, who knows if I am that solid? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG (KluddeLudde) calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, Hero raises, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds, UTG (KluddeLudde) 3-bets, Hero calls.

Flop: (7.40 SB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
KluddeLudde bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.70 BB) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
KluddeLudde bets, Hero calls.

River: (6.70 BB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
KluddeLudde bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 8.70 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

TripleH68

01-23-2005, 01:23 PM

Only thing I can see that I might not like is the turn raise in hand three.

I suffered through a 180BB downswing over about 3 weeks. It has not crushed my confidence and I am slowly working back up...

wuarhg

01-23-2005, 01:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
results?

[/ QUOTE ]

Always forget to check that box, Kludde shows 88 and MHING /images/graemlins/frown.gif

colgin

01-23-2005, 01:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I had a 160 bb downswing last Thursday, don't feel bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am currently in the middle of a -100BB+ swing since yesterday. Set over set, runner runner, Kings against Aces, yadda, yadda, yadda. It happens.

Kluddeludde

01-23-2005, 02:08 PM

I remember this hand. It is one of the 3 hands in my database where I've limp-reraised. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Kludde

GrekeHaus

01-23-2005, 02:58 PM

On a somewhat related note, I've been beating the 3/6 game at PP easily (around 2.5 BB/100), but every time I move up to 5/10, I have a hard time maintaining a win rate over 1 BB/100. This might have something to do with sample size, since I've only played about 12,000 hands there. It sounds like other people have had trouble with these issues too.

I remember reading a post a while back about how 5/10 might be the hardest game at PP to beat, and that 10/20 might actually be easier. The reasons given are as the following:
<ul type="square"> The rate of the rake is much higher at 5/10 The play is much tighter than it is at 3/6 5/10 tends to contains a bunch of 3/6 graduates
[/list]
Anybody have any comments about this? I've been building up my bankroll at 3/6 and was thinking of just trying to jump over 5/10 and hop straight into 10/20 once I feel comfortable.

BottlesOf

01-23-2005, 03:37 PM

I think all of these are good. I paused a little on hand 3, but I think it should be fairly clear that he probably has an overpair to which you have 6 clean outs plus your backdoor draw[s]. I am bleeding money myself, and am questioning my game, so I know what you're going through. Hang in there, take a break if necessary and keep posting.

Spook

01-23-2005, 04:11 PM

Actually your call on the river in hand one is not a one in seven bluff call. You are playing the board so the most you can get back is half, so it is risking 1 to win 3.

jason_t

01-23-2005, 06:03 PM

What is the point of the limp reraise?

Nice hand.

Perseus

01-23-2005, 09:10 PM

I believe it's been pretty well stated that the 5/10 full ring on partypoker is the hardest to beat on that site. This is because all of the gamblers go play SH and fish with big bankrolls play 15/30, and the ones with small bankrolls play 3/6.

Try dropping down to 3/6 full or learn 5/106max assuming you have 450...much much MUCH more profitable.

Good luck
Jon

limitholdemshark

01-23-2005, 09:52 PM

hand 1:fold preflop u have a dominated hand thats out of position unless its a very tight table full of rocks then u can raise it up preflop.with a loose aggressive table muck it. tight is rite in very loose games.
hand 2:i would have gone 4 the check raise on the flop.if i had J10s then i wood have bet out 4 fear of the over cards and i would want the flush draws to pay 4 thier drawing hands 2 beat my top pair.with middle pair and gut shot hand i would try a semi bluff even though im out of position.
hand 3:i would check preflop as bb why let the world know i have high cards preflop.then check the flop and if someone bets on the flop raise.representing that as the random bb hand i had a 5 in my hand
i want u 2 buy some hold-em books so u can correct the many flaws in ur game.also drop down in stakes 2 get more expierence b4 u land in the poor house

good luck

the shark

Evan

01-23-2005, 09:54 PM

Yes, I was playing 10/20 6 max. It was still horrible.

pudley4

01-23-2005, 10:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
hand 1:fold preflop u have a dominated hand thats out of position unless its a very tight table full of rocks then u can raise it up preflop.with a loose aggressive table muck it. tight is rite in very loose games.
hand 2:i would have gone 4 the check raise on the flop.if i had J10s then i wood have bet out 4 fear of the over cards and i would want the flush draws to pay 4 thier drawing hands 2 beat my top pair.with middle pair and gut shot hand i would try a semi bluff even though im out of position.
hand 3:i would check preflop as bb why let the world know i have high cards preflop.then check the flop and if someone bets on the flop raise.representing that as the random bb hand i had a 5 in my hand
i want u 2 buy some hold-em books so u can correct the many flaws in ur game.also drop down in stakes 2 get more expierence b4 u land in the poor house

good luck

the shark

[/ QUOTE ]

Your advice is terrible. Please move your poker discussion here (http://www.quarterlifecrisis.com/forums). They're closer to your skill level.

bisonbison

01-23-2005, 10:59 PM

I'm in on a -135BB swing. Had the worst tilt of my pro life on Friday and probably could have escaped with a -75BB swing if I'd quit earlier. Such is life. I played yesterday and broke almost exactly even after 3000 hands. I'll play tonight and I'll play tomorrow. Must beat Tosh. Must pay rent.

BottlesOf

01-23-2005, 11:03 PM

Please stop posting answers as they're terrible.

If you want, start posting questions.

Writing "4" instead of "for" or "2" instead of "to" is just about the lamest thing I've seen.

sfwusc

01-24-2005, 04:48 PM

Hand 1. Check the turn. Check/fold the river(split pot or losing)

Hand 2. standard

Hand 3. Raise the river...check/fold until you improve

ErrantNight

01-25-2005, 12:19 PM

no no. this is great advice. i'll PM you next time i'm playing, and if ur on u can cum 2 my table and coach me. sit on my right, k?

kewl.

sfer

01-25-2005, 12:31 PM

I dropped 100 BBs playing solid aggressive poker at Party 2/4 last night. Sometimes you just can't beat the fish.

ErrantNight

01-25-2005, 12:42 PM

yes. very, very solid.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button (Villain (sfer)) raises, Hero calls, BB 3-bets, Button (Villain (sfer)) caps, Hero calls, BB calls.

Flop: (12 SB) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
Hero bets, BB calls, Villain (sfer) raises, Hero calls, BB calls.

Turn: (9 BB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
Hero bets, BB folds, Villain (sfer) raises, Hero 3-bets, Villain (sfer) caps, Hero calls.

River: (17 BB) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Villain (sfer) bets

sthief09: check-raise
sthief09: do it
Hero: bastard river counterfeiting me

I think long and hard.

Hero raises, Villain (sfer) 3-bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 23 BB

Results in white below: 
Hero has 2h 8h (two pair, kings and eights).
Villain (sfer) has Ts 7c (one pair, kings).
Outcome: Hero wins 23 BB.

ErrantNight

01-25-2005, 12:43 PM

note: i'm a puss for needing encouragement to make this c/r. and where's the river cap?

sfer

01-25-2005, 12:48 PM

What can I say? Everyone was playing like a maniac and I was trying to fold Ace high. You almost folded a pair, which is an effing disaster against me. Ask anyone in New York.

ErrantNight

01-25-2005, 12:51 PM

i'm not saying i didn't play like a weak tight lil bitch... but despite the hands posted i'd never sat to your left, while you were on josh's. took me a while to adjust /images/graemlins/smile.gif

SomethingClever

01-25-2005, 01:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
i'm not saying i didn't play like a weak tight lil bitch... but despite the hands posted i'd never sat to your left, while you were on josh's. took me a while to adjust /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Two words: Table selection.