7 Stud Versus Holdem (7 Stud Experts??)

[gaming_mouse]

I've been messing around with 7 stud high a bit, just to break up the multitabling sessions of 3/6.

My initial instinct is that 7 stud is a much more mechanical game. That is, the ability to learn an oppo's style seems less important. The purely mathematical ability to use all known cards to calculate the chance that you're beat, otoh, seems more important.

Is this correct or just a beginner's mis-impression?

Thanks for any thoughts,
gm

[soko]

I am not an expert either but hold'em is supposed to be the most strategic version of poker Harrington explains this a little in his book on Hold 'em there is just enough information given and just enough unknown information that makes it an especially difficult game, where as a game like Draw there is not enough information and a game like stud where there is a wealth of information. maybe check out the stud forums:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/postlist.php?Cat=&Board=stud

[schroedy]

I play a fair amount of both stud and hold 'em.

Mason wrote an article about it, where he concluded that in stud it is more difficult to figure out where you are but once you do your decision is fairly easy, while in hold 'em it is easier to figure out where you are but once you do you often still don't know what to do. My experience recently has been exactly the opposite (I never seem to know what my HE opps hold, while at stud I am seeing through the deck), but Mason never really took me up on this (I don't think I asked him directly, but I did publish the comment somewhere in these fora).

There are definitely a lot of bluffing opportunities in stud, free card plays, ante stealing, etc. It is also true that about 85% of (at least my) stud profits come from finding an opponent who is willing to go into a pot heads up with you (me) when he is behind or drawing. Most people in stud on the river are going to call you so you have to set up your bluffs early in the game.

I would tend to agree that Stud is more "about the cards" and HE is more "about the players." At least at the levels that I play.

[dogmeat]

It is just as important to understand the other players thoughts and play patterns in 7-stud as it is in Hold-em. There may be less to learn, but knowing some of the following things are just as important as how a hold'em player plays:

What are their starting requirements? Will they play three small cards to a straight or flush, will they play a small split pair (will they play it for a raise) etc?

Will they raise with a big pair on third street, or does their raise mean they don't have the pair they are representing?

Will they chase a straight or flush after catching bad on forth street street heads-up, or with two callers, or three etc? This is important because if you know they will not call with less than three players to a straight they missed on fourth, then their call means they are not on a straight draw.

Will they play their big pair come hell or high water to the river?


Will they always raise when they hit their flush/straight/trips on 5th or wait and check raise? Do they do this on 5th, 6th or only the river?

Will they represent a straight/flush and even play-back (reraise) at you when they are still on the come?

This list has a few of about 100 such questions you should be able to consider for each opponent before you really know how they play. Do you really think it is much less important than hold'em?

Dogmeat /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[grandgnu]

Hold 'Em is most certainly more about playing against the other players hands. If you can figure out their holding (based on any tells, or action-tells they make) then you can determine your course of action.

With the No Limit varient (I don't really get into limit Hold 'Em) it's easier to push people out of pots with big bets (or get the 80%+ fish out there to call you with marginal holdings)

With 7-stud, I feel, it's more important to be able to recall information presented. Keeping track of what cards have been out is vital.

Yes, in 7-stud you do get more information than in hold 'em, but most players are hold 'em players, and aren't attentive or intelligent enough to keep track of this info. If you can do it, you'll have a huge advantage.

A lot of players will see A/K/J at the start and think they're gold, not paying attention that their Ace is out over there, and there are two Queens on the board, and they are unsuited, etc. etc.

By keeping track of not only the cards you need that are out, but also that your opponent might need, you can win a lot of money in this game. It is harder to push people out on the river, given the limit nature of this game. But I feel 7-stud is more complex than Hold 'Em, more difficult to master and play well.

That being said, there's probably more money in Hold 'Em games, given all the douchebags who watch TV and think that they have to play every hand, ESPECIALLY if it's 8/2 SOOTED! There's so many fish in Hold 'Em right now you can make a real killing.

But I still prefer 7-stud, stud hi/lo and Omaha hi/lo.

[gaming_mouse]

grandgnu,

So would you say that there are fewer fish playing 7 stud? Even at the lower limits? In general, do you think it's a harder game to beat?

[grandgnu]

[ QUOTE ]
grandgnu,

So would you say that there are fewer fish playing 7 stud? Even at the lower limits? In general, do you think it's a harder game to beat?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's hard to find a game of 7-stud, in my opinion. I'm not near Vegas though, closest casino to me is Foxwoods in CT. They don't seem to be holding their weekly 7-stud or Omaha hi/lo tourneys anymore, everything is friggin Hold 'em.

And when you try to get a cash table together, it's mostly Hold 'Em due to its popularity.

I would say there's more money in Hold 'Em, more table and limit varieties and more fish. There are still plenty of bad players in 7-stud, who just don't pay enough attention.

If you're lucky, a Hold 'Em player (or many of them) will be waiting for a seat in one of their games and will play some 7-stud or Omaha and you can make some money off them.

But for brick and mortar games, it's hard in my area to find much variety. Maybe online. But for the most part, I just focus on my home games right now, and then the New England Poker Classic in the spring and maybe the WPT events in the Fall at Foxwoods.

[mosquito]

Vegas has almost no 7-stud. It is easier to find Omaha.
The Indian casinos out west tend to have a small spread
limit game, as do the MS casinos.

[Mike Gallo]

Mouse,

I started playing stud before I picked up Holdem.

When poker first became legal in AC most players played stud. The casinos did not spread many holdem games.

The highest games at the Taj and Trop are the stud games.

IMHO stud is a more difficult game to play.

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]
IMHO stud is a more difficult game to play.

[/ QUOTE ]

But for what reason is it more difficult? A few posters have said that oppo reading is just as important. I can see the usefulness of it, of course, but it still seems like number crunching would play a larger role stud.

Eg, it seems like a rain man type player -- able to perfectly remember all exposed cards and calculate complex odds on the spot -- would be very good a 7 stud, even if he had no ability to find patterns in his oppo's play. Or is this way off?

[grandgnu]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
IMHO stud is a more difficult game to play.

[/ QUOTE ]

But for what reason is it more difficult? A few posters have said that oppo reading is just as important. I can see the usefulness of it, of course, but it still seems like number crunching would play a larger role stud.

Eg, it seems like a rain man type player -- able to perfectly remember all exposed cards and calculate complex odds on the spot -- would be very good a 7 stud, even if he had no ability to find patterns in his oppo's play. Or is this way off?

[/ QUOTE ]

In Hold 'Em, you only have to pay attention to your opponents, that's it. It's fairly simple.

In 7-stud, paying attention to your opponents helps. But you also have a lot more information to keep track of, because there is more information available. If you can recall that there have been five clubs out, and you have a club in the hole, and your opponent is betting like he has the club flush, well, you have a better chance of catching their bluffs.

7-stud requires more concentration, you must pay more attention and retain more information in your head. This is why players can multi-table Hold 'Em games online like crazy, but if they tried to multi-table 7-stud they'd likely lose more often than not.

[SA125]

Two things. One is that, as Mike Gallo pointed out, stud is always spread as high as holdem in the Taj, if not higher. It's got 5 bets and can be an action game. Second, one of the reason's it's harder for beginner's is, unlike holdem, the board can't tell you what the lock is.

[beset7]

Gaming Mouse,

I'd suggest reading Roy West's book on low-limit Stud. Then, progress on up to 7CSFAP.

Stud is by far the most complex and difficult poker game to play. I personally feel that all of the skills needed to be a success hold em player (good handing reading abilities, good starting hand requirements and controlled aggression) are needed to play good stud plus the more "mechanical" skills as you called them (adjusting your outs based on dead cards, etc).

I'm one of these ambitious types who is trying to basically learn all of the commonly played forms of poker at the same time (i rotate a little but I just about play everything right now, including stud and stud8 online) and I think stud can be deceptively easy at the low-limits and there are plenty of fishy games. Just look out for bad ante structures (i.e. skip the .5/1 tables at party. the ante is ridiculous and avoid no-ante games. they are usually full of rocks).

It is a game where an expert player can save a few bets here and there and gain a few bets here and there that an unskilled player couldn't. Once again, start w/ Roy West and then move onto 7CSFAP if you start playing in tougher games.

Also, per multi-tabling, people multi-table 7stud using HUDS that keep track of dead cards. There is some debate about the ethics of doing this but since it is common at low-limits you should be aware of it.

[patrick dicaprio]

i think it is correct for the most part and is 100% correct at limits of 10-20 and below.

Pat

[patrick dicaprio]

stud may be more mechanical but that does not imply that it is easier. it is just a different skill set that is just as difficult to acquire.

Pat

[CORed]

I would also point out that, for online play, hold'em is much better suited for multi-tabling. If you multi-table stud, it is easy to miss board cards if players fold before the table has your attention, and if you are in action on more than one table, it can be hard to keep track of what cards are out on all the tables. I find that I can pay two tables of stud reasonably well, but more is not practical.

[BeerMoney]

The hardest game is the game with the best opponents.

Opponents playing style is very important in 7 stud, as ante stealing is an important facet of the game.

[Bluffoon]

[ QUOTE ]
I've been messing around with 7 stud high a bit, just to break up the multitabling sessions of 3/6.

My initial instinct is that 7 stud is a much more mechanical game. That is, the ability to learn an oppo's style seems less important. The purely mathematical ability to use all known cards to calculate the chance that you're beat, otoh, seems more important.

Is this correct or just a beginner's mis-impression?

Thanks for any thoughts,
gm

[/ QUOTE ]

Learning your opponents may be even more important in stud. You have less information than in holdem. Your opponents have three cards you can not see.

Keeping track of the cards that have been out is simply an additional techinical detail that has to be taken into account.